Jorge Luis Castro Toribio: DevOps Pipeline Game

In this talk, Jorge Castro discusses the transformative potential of gamification within the DevOps pipeline. He presents the 'libery pipeline DevOps outcome game', which is designed to foster a collaborative culture and enhance understanding of DevOps practices within organizations. The session highlights the challenges faced by enterprises, such as the need for improved communication and the reduction of manual tasks. By simulating a product development flow through a game format, teams learn to work together more effectively while incorporating key concepts like continuous delivery and automation. Castro emphasizes that a successful transformation requires not just technical changes but a shift in mindset and culture, allowing teams to break down silos and enhance cooperation across various roles.

[Music] we're getting the deeper into the day and we've got just two talks remaining my next guest up is a transformative lead and they are here to talk about the devops pipeline it's my pleasure to introduce H Luis Castro tibio who will be with you for about the next 40 minutes what I want to remind you of as we get into this though I see you guys

I know you've been asking a few questions sometimes you haven't been using that Q&A tab make sure you tap them in there because at the end of the session I will relay all them to Jorge but now let stay hi hi everybody good morning uh thank you very much for the introduction my name is Jorge Castro um I'm very happy to be part of the event um

I think that uh it's awesome when we have these kind of events when we want we have the chance to share knowledge and share what we love right technology devops and so forth so thank you very thank you very much for the invitation uh the name of my talk today is uh I'm going to share with you uh a game basically uh this is a game that

uh we designed and we are we implemented for um you know helping the Enterprises to build these new practices of devops the culture and the mindset so we are going to share with you what this game is about um the name of this game is the libery pipeline devops outcome game um the idea is that uh this game help us to learning leaning continu libery and develops

uh practices mindset through games and I so so yeah that's the idea uh we are going to share with you uh the game the rules and so forth in this presentation okay let's continue then um well again this is my personal information uh I I work as a transformation lead so please um my main focus are in devops testing and Agility um you can see here my

contact information so please if you want to add me to your LinkedIn accounts or you want to contact me it would be awesome uh I strongly believe in the in the idea to share knowledge to build communities um so it would be great if we can keep in touch after this conversation um okay well okay as I mentioned in this talk we we share a game based

approach to software product development to enas devops and development practices and bu alignment and common understanding about what doing the Bops and agile ways of working demands oriented to improve business and flow I think that is quite important because at least in my experience uh when I had a chance to work with different Enterprises um to transform the way that they are delivering software using agile devops

ways of working and so forth um a very a very important challenge is the ways of working right how how the Engineers are um you know um are ready to change the way that they develop software um testing development design architecture and so forth uh at the end devops is about practices uh it's about um trying to learn new skills and also new ways of doing things

so this game this this the game that we are going to show today with you uh can you help can help you to to do that right um that's idea okay uh first of all I think um thank you very much for being part of this session I smile is the universal welcome so thank you very much for for being here I hope you can enjoy this

talk um basically I'm going to share with you what what we do with our clients uh in my company by the way uh I think I I I forgot to mention that I work for entity data which is a Japanese company um I I work in the IT services area um yes I think that is quite important I smile is the universe welcome so welcome thank you

to be thank you for being here okay uh I would like to in I would like to introduce uh I would like to share with you this um this Myro I think we are not going to run this Myro now right now but um um I'm going to please take note of this Myro I would like to maybe um get some information from you about your experience

in devops your experience in gameification um what what what is the value that you consider that you can add to your companies in terms of devops right we are not going to um check this um my this sorry this meant it right now but just please uh you know um um please take note of this information because maybe after this session I would I I would like

to have your feedback about this uh these ideas right um um and also I I recommend you I recommend you that right to you if you if you are going to run uh this this game with your clients so you want to reproduce the game that I'm going to show with you in some minutes I recommend you first of all to try to get some information about

your audience right uh in this m basically I wrote three questions uh number one uh what is devops a general question okay for you so you so people can people can respond the question right what is devil what devop means for me uh I think I think this is important because remember that in in the in the devops culture we need to take care of the end

to end right of the flow and as you know the flow of software delivery um we have different actors right different uh people different roles we have people from business people from Ops from operations people from development from databases and so forth so I think this question is quite important right what devops is regarding your experience second the second question is about what is the value that

you think devops add to your company and I think also that is a good question because maybe maybe in some scenar iOS the answer from a people from business could be different from a people from operations and people from development so I think that is something that is a question that is quite important as well and the third question is it could be the number of years

of experience that you have in devels right maybe there are people with one year of experience with zero year of experience and maybe you have people with a lot of experience so I recommend you to run this this m with your teams if you want to run the workshop or maybe if you want to do whatever Workshop about devops um that you want to do in your

company and I think those reation can be very useful to get some information about the audience I'm not go I'm not going to run this this Mente today because we are not going to run the workshop right now basically I'm because of you know we are we are in in um uh in a virtual mode um basically this Workshop is uh was designed to run in a

face tof face event right with people in place so B but basically that is a first recommendation about uh running a game with your teams okay uh about the about the the purpose of this game right why why we design this game I think that is quite important as well because at the end is is the reason right um is because of this you know nowadays Enterprises

faces these kind of challenges right uh speeds I think more and more because of automation artificial intelligence and so forth we need to take care of the speed how what is our flow time right how how many days how many hours we are taking to put our product in production delting value to our customers so I think there a challenge also cost of reduction right with all

these fine UPS movement wave uh we need to take care of cost of reduction we need to automate more and try to be more efficient in terms of budget and so forth so that is something quite important quality well I think quality is is is a kind of key concept key characteristic that any any kind of product uh should have right so um so yeah I think

quality is also quite important a challenge that nowadays that we have especially of especially because of speed right um okay then also Innovation I think uh also it's a challenge we need to um take care of how we are developing software what is the impact of our products and important um review if our products are are we check if our products are delivering value to our customer

are and also impacting the ways that they do things right I think Innovation here is quite important because we need to implement feedback loops maybe Innovation programs or basically get information about the quality the the how value of how value are our products for our clients as well um finally consistency right because we can Implement a lot of things right we can Implement tooling we can implement

we can Implement automation we can improve velocity speed time flow flow time we can improve our throw put as well but um if we don't if we are not consistency about that in our end to end in our software development life cycle process maybe this is going to be a kind of uh victory of one day right instead of having uh this process mature a the time

you know so those are challenges challenges that we have so that is why we create that is why we create this game right to to support this to try to help this and also uh yeah I think that is something that is quite um familiar to you if you have experience in devops but this is this problem this um problem of the wall of confusion right this

uh two sides of the of the same picture right the picture is the the software delivery cycle you know the flow time the flow that we have to deliver software um the two sides are the the development side and also the operation s right uh and I'm talking about about this because at least in my experience this is something that is still happening in in some companies

right this um world of confusion and it's a challenge it's a real challenge when you want to transform your ways of working using devops so yeah so in one side you have the local objectives deliver new functionalities you want to deliver more and more and more and in the other end you have you want to rationalize uh more and more and more right you want to look

for stability and and in the other side you want to Del deliver stuff right to your clients so I think that is the world of confusion and that happened because we those both sides don't share uh a common goal right and also they don't share um uh the same idea about what is De Bops what is the value of De Bops and why de Bops is useful

to improve flow right or helps to maintain continuous delivery so yeah also this is one reason about the game right we attack this we attack this problem with game um about this situation this I I I I I like this uh devops devops um concept de's um idea you know that I took from the the Phoenix project I recommend you this book um I think that is

this is one of the best definition of devops uh in the market dups is a union of people process and products to enable continuous delivery of value to our end users right that's right it emphasizes improving the flow of work from development through operations reducing lead times and increasing the reliability of releases yeah I totally agree with that um and actually that is that that this this

um definition help help us out to design our game so you are going to see in some moments but yeah we we took this this uh definition to design and drive our our workshop and also our game and about flow which is something quite important right um hopefully you can see this video um and please check the video and I think in my experience this is the

best one of the best um ways to understand flow right flow outside it of course this is not a software uh development process right but I think this this this video about flow is quite interesting right what you can see the video is this group of kids uh playing with this uh football ball right with with this soccer ball um as you can see here each of

them are share the same goal which is put the ball into this backet right and all of them are working together you know all of them has responsibility about this this same goal for same same and share goal in my opinion this is a good example of flow right people working together sharing the same goal um helping the the goal with their skills right and being part

of the process in the best way that they can right um I think that is a good example flow I I like this um um as about this well about the pro where we talk about the problem we talk about what is devops and how devops helps with this problem uh I also also some some input that that we that we took from from from the devops

uh status right now in the market is this that the do report right this is the last information that we have about the do report um if you don't know what is do report the do report is a um an assessment B that's uh Google d uh for you know for getting information about what is the maturity of devops practices of continuous delivery in some companies right

and there are some um uh some numbers that they get from the companies and with that information they can categorize the companies in some performance levels with some characteristics right as you can see here in this Final in this last report report from the from the from the previous year you can see here that the companies most of the companies that were that took the survey uh

they they are in the high and medium performance level right um um only the only the the 18% and the 177% are in the elite and low low levels um also you can see here some some uh metrics some some quite important important indicators that development frequency the change lead time the change failure rate and the failure deployment recovery time there are there are a new one

which is the the reliability but it's not it's not here in this in this um in this data but I think that this information is quite important number one to to see what is the situation of your company using this deployment frequency change lead time change fi rates and Fa failed de develop deployment recovery time uh it's quite important analyze your company using these kind of indicators

right using that information you can see if you are an elite company or maybe you are a low company and if you are in the low company level I think this is something that can help you to prepare some improvement plans right depending of your business goals more or less you need to most probably use the bobs for that right and finally I think I think a

good message finally about this slide of course a good message that uh I like to highlight is about the Natan Harvey Natan Harvey is one of the developers Advocates and Lead leaders of Da at Google Cloud uh he said that without without a healthy culture no none of these matters right I think I totally agree with him um we need to take care of people and actually

that is why we create this game because we we consider that gamification is a good approach to teach people to build new ways of working to change behaviors right I think it's the it's a good way in terms of make this kind of transformation programs more um comfortable more engagement more engaged and also more funny for people yeah okay um I recommend you also this book we

took a lot of things from this book and I strongly believe about what Carr said about gamification and games I think Sim simulations and gamification are the future of education and in my experience I consider uh our jobs you know our companies as a place to learn and practice right as a kind of experimental learning Laboratories right I think our works should should be do should be

do that right uh this should be places where we can learn stuff put it into practice learn about what we do and try new stuff right I think I think uh I agree I agree with that and that is why we use gamification because we cons we gamification and simulation because we uh we consider that this is a good approach to improve this kind of experimentation in

the companies um yeah so basically yes uh we believe in continu fun in learning by doing so that is why we create this uh pipel devop upcome game to try to uh simulate real software development scenarios B next lack of collaboration for Quality manual staff and so forth uh deliver it in in gamified form to build the BS was working and align team goals yeah I think

I think that is that is basically a summary of our game purpose and why we read this game and why our game is about well now I'm going to explain you with more details what is the game about basically as I mentioned this um develops pip pipeline game is a kind of simulation using gamification to simulate a uh a product development flow with different uh roles involved

right basically in the game we have the business go the business role the developers role the tester role and operation roles that that those are the main roles that we uh Implement in the game right um and we simulate as I as I said before we simulate the uh product uh product developer product development flow right from from business to operations you know um and basically you

can run this this workshop with in our case I think the maximum amount of people that we run this Workshop uh in C right in place right with the people there in the same room working together right with five teams right more or less more than 50 people but of course you can adapt this to run with more people or less people of course um each team

can have maybe 10 10 people right uh or playing the game in in each team right 10 people more or less okay um uh we we like to start the the the game before starting the game with this race race awareness right basically we ask those two questions to the to the audience right I remember in the audience you have people from business people from development from

testing people from from operations as well so we We rise awareness with those questions the first question is how long would it take team a team to deploy a change to a prod to a product Improvement or maybe a maintenance or something like that that involves just one line of code and and and believe me we got very interesting answers about this when we ask these questions

there are people that say that maybe they they took they took one month or they took one week or one day and actually that is a reality in some of the companies that I had a chance to work with and the second question is would it do it in a reliable and reproducible way right how how how do you do in a uh reliable and reproducible way

right this uh this this delivery right right uh that is another question because we notice that at least from business from testing and from operations they don't feel trust or they don't trust about the quality reliability of some of the products because of um maybe because of the bux that they got or something or something similar right yes so I think those two questions are quite interesting

and and and you going to cause a lot of uh debates about about them a lot of feedback about it so I recommend you to to to ask ask those questions um well we took those question from uh Marie and and Tom pendek uh basically they also recommend to to ask those question if you want to transform your development life cycle you know to improve it so

I recommend you to follow them as well and also the their books which are really okay uh basically the game plan basically this game uh we we divided the game in three Sprints we run three Sprints each Sprint can take maybe more or less 10 minutes you know more or less because we have some activities in each Sprint we have the planning we have the the Sprint

itself right the execution of the game we have the rospective we have the taking notes of some data right and also the the the the the final uh review of The Experience right each each a each uh Sprint so that is why I mention that maybe each Sprint can take 10 minutes or maybe more you know but basically we divide the game in three Sprints then the

Sprint number one is silos and manual activities everywhere so basically in this Sprint basically we reproduce the current status you know uh of the software development life cycle right uh which which in some cases so in most of the cases uh teams have a lot of silos a lot of manual activities right for development for testing and so forth so in this first Sprint we we we

run the situation with a team in the second Sprint culture of collaboration and more automation is is that we introduce some improvements right as I mentioned before each Sprint has a time for retrospective right and team agreements and sharing experiences right for all the team members about what we learn uh what they do different so in Spring two we apply the improvements right and we start with

a culture of collaboration and also to automate some stuff right this is quite important because in in in most of the cases in in almost all When We Run the game with the teams right in the first Sprint the the first lesson learned or the the first Improvement that they want to implement is about collaboration right right uh collaboration between business operations development and testers and also

improve Communications and the approach the other uh key Improvement was uh automation right they they notice that manual activi man man activities are slow some sometimes and also that they need to uh get speed right and Automation and spr number three uh the number of the Sprint is flow and continuous delivery and basically in this in this uh Sprint we we apply all the improvements to the

simulation of sofware delivery cycle right um and we apply Lan or automation or devops uh um Concepts like continuous feedback you know like uh uh automation everywhere and to deliver a a a one only pipeline right um yeah which is pretty has has different has different uh points of view different activities and also each Sprint is um enriched by the improvements from taken from from the previous

one um in the in the game basically what we are trying to do uh team is uh we reproduce as I mentioned a software deliver cycle and we have uh roles in the team right you know a team can have uh sorry a team can can be formed by maybe 10 people right you can have 10 people in each team and in in the in in the

team you can you can have uh you can you can have people with the role of business one one from the business people from development you know development role testers and operation right and they all together are a team and they need to work uh as we need to simulate at the creation of why we why we do this and how we do this we are going

to share with some videos okay this is the first Sprint uh the video is charging one second please I'm going to hear this okay in this video you can see here the first Sprint and basically you can see here that uh each each team is a queue right a queue of people you can see you can see here the beginning of the queue uh in the beginning

of the queue you have the the the product owner or the business guy right then you have the developers maybe three or four developers then you can you can see the testers maybe two or three tester and at the end of the Queue at the end right you have you have the the people from operations uh basically the they they pass a bow and this bowl represents

the product the software the software being being development and also you can see here that there are some stickers right some stickers that some guys are putting in the Bol right the stickers are for the business are for testing are for of operations and basically the challenge is that each each people from that Ro for example people from business for when when when he when he or

she takes the ball she needs to put the sticker on the ball right maybe a a sticker with a particular color right and the same the same action is is doing by the people from from testing with a sticker with another color and also with the people from operations this represents the manual stuff right this represent the right each of them the finger need to need to

put the sign in the product development from operations right that is why they put this sticker in the Bol and basically all this manual right they are working together in a qu in silos and without any kind of any kind of communication as you can see here they are not talking about about the the process but basically they are doing that right this is the first Sprint

basically okay as I mentioned in the print we have a planning Sprint retrospective game data registation because uh that's important we took some metrics flow metrics uh like flow time like throw put and so forth the velocity of of the of the flow uh the main bottlenecks and the throw right how many balls uh we we do in in the time right five minutes 3 minutes depending

of your time and at the end also we have some space uh where each team can share what is the main lesson or the main uh good stuff that they get that they get from the first Sprint okay the second Sprint is uh something similar but we Implement some improvements in the game uh in in in the second in the second Sprint basically we we share with

the team members some big papers right and they need to build the pipeline right as you can see here they are building a pipeline right simulating a de both pipeline but in as you can see here the pipeline is also a silo pipeline right uh is less flowable pipeline because each team member has a part of the pipeline and they need to work together to try to

put uh the pipelines together right uh uh and and you know and try to use the the ball to go through the entire pipeline right and there are a lot of challenges there because you still have some manual activities you you still have to work together um work together with without more Automation and so forth so this is a second Sprint right um create the pipeline here

um and in the final in the final um stage basically this is the the flow of continu delivery as you can see here after the retrospective in the second Sprint and after implementing the approaches the team take the decision to for example in some changes uh um paste the pipeline right stick the pipeline with with maybe um with a sticky notes or maybe with some glue or

or whatever right they P they they put the pipeline they work together they they talk each other they they have some strategies about it for example here right you can see here that uh they put the sticker before uh before putting the bow in the pipeline also they create only only one pipe pad full automated uh some of them write work putting the putting part of the

pipeline um in in a different a different H high right sorry about I I'm getting laugh because I remember this exercise and it was very funny it was very uh insightful for me so yeah so you can see here that people is working together and and notice that right now that the flow time is just seconds right they put the they put the the pole in the

pipeline and it's quite it's quite uh uh they have a lot of speed and also a lot of automation right and also they combine skills right now you can see here people from business operation and T you working together no matter the role working together to uh deliver the product okay okay uh basically some moments about this game uh some some I think uh very interesting information

uh feedback loops are key for continuous Improvement I think that is one one of the H moments that we got from the from the Run of this game with different clients uh Gamers see how lack of communication leads to delays and misunderstandings emphasizing the need for better collaboration that is something key uh Gamers identify and eliminate waste yes uh manual activities uh waiting redundant steps leading to

smoother and faster workflow understanding that deop is not just a set of practices but a cultural shift that is quite important because they notice that if if if I not if I don't work together with business and testing and operations this is not work um the the real realization that iterative customer focus develop results in higher quality yeah that is something something that they also notice in

in the game because at the end we have bare flow right and be flow is more quality products okay finally takeaways or just to sum up uh the game helps to gain a comprehensive understanding of how aile lean flow and Dev practices interconnect to enhance collaboration efficiency and productivity uh Gamers learned the importance of breaking down silos implementing continuous integration and deployment and leverage itative development with

customer feedback the game built the first Foundation of deop culture providing handsome experience with practical applications and continuous Improvement uh in a game in a game f format uh this is yeah this is true this is what we get from from the run from running this game with our clients I recommend you also between Sprint maybe you can share some uh devops concept right like feedback loops

you know like continuous improvements like integration and so forth also I recommend you if you especially if you have people that they don't have too much experience with devop right that is my recommendation but at the end they are they are going to learn this these ideas running the game which is that is purpose uh some books that I recommend you guys uh Contin delivery book from

J yes humble and delivery Farley the Phenix projects a great book about de Story in real business uh this book about gamification we we took a lot of ideas from those books and also from this uh book from gamification action gamification we took the opalis framework which is a framework to design uh games I recommend you to use this book and also thealis framework and also this

awesome group awesome book game design workships by Tracy Fullerton I think it's a great book great book if you want to run games and also uh design workships finally uh again thank you very much for your time I really appreciate that uh remember that we have dreams so help and share more uh remember that sharing is caring and thank you very much I hope you enjoy the

talk if you want to learn more about this game you can you can get you can find me in LinkedIn and I will be very happy to help you thank you very guys thank you J uh folks if you do have any questions for J be sure to click that Q&A Tab and drop them in ASAP while we still got them um but yeah yeah an interesting

idea that kind of came to mind when I was listening to this J is um you know essentially we're kind of gamifying work right and with within that did you find much resistance from like the older generation yes yes that that that that is true that is true and I don't know if if you notice in the videos but in the videos the team is very mixed

right you you you can see very young people and also you can see people maybe which more than 40 years so you know but yes at the beginning we we get some resistance from from older people but uh something that was very interesting was that the real thing you know the real thing in this kind of large Enterprises that those teams you know in those teams you

can you can find people in his 20s and also in his 30s and I think that that is the reality right um and I think if if you explain what is the purpose of this right that you want to that they they feel comfortable right learning new stuff uh uh and also you have the the support from the youngers right I think it it's it's a good

a good way to help you to to run this kind of workshops with a very mixed mixed group right um with good results yeah yeah I guess like maybe one way you do it is you kind of incentivize it as part of like the workflow to a certain degree like you know I'm always reminded of things like um Google was a classic one where a lot of

the different tools they've created over the years was because they gave one day of work a week where they're like go off do your own project so I guess maybe that's a way that it gets treated is like you know you could kind of do the Carro of the stick approach where you're like look I could just give you endless sheets to look through for the next

day or come do this team building exercise yeah absolutely absolutely and I I I I'm I'm not sure if you you also notice in the video but from the from the first Sprint you know if you if you compare the first Sprint which is all manual right without any kind of collaboration each each uh people from business people from testing people from Ops uh uh sticking sticking

the the sticker right putting the sticker on the bow right it's all manual it's all slow right and yeah but if you notice at the end in the final third Sprint working together all of them they create a pipeline only one Pipeline and I think if I remember maybe maybe the first the first flow time in the first Sprint was maybe I don't know maybe one minute

right one minute okay uh but in the in the final Sprint you can you can see a flow time of one second or maybe two seconds right which is amazing and that is because collaboration and I think actually what what you what you mentioned is something that we also share uh at the end of the session right we share imagine that if you can you can replicate

this in your daily work right with your software with your testing with your development working closer with the business with your product owner right working closer with operations right working together um and you can get this kind of U Improvement right in your delivery cycle and you can have a better developer experience right I think that is also key um at least in my experience something that

it's quite important when you want to transform a ways of working with devops aile cloud or whatever you need to take care of people and take care of the developer experience right how all these indicators tools trainings and all the stuff that you want to apply right how this is aligned to improve the custom the developer experience right in the same way that you take care of

customer experience you should take care of your comfortable are your developers in terms of doing what they are doing right yeah no I I see where you come from yeah it it makes a lot of sense right like you know you need to essentially give the time the space for them to actually integrate with that kind of experience but um I think the the kind of interesting

thing is quite often you know time and time again the nice thing as well about trying to use these systems is because I say becoming a bit more regular a bit more frequent you have now got examples to look towards and say look this works like you know in in the early days of trying to integrate these type of systems was that a challenge that you didn't

maybe have as many use cases to say look this proof yes absolutely absolutely um yeah I I recommend you in my experience right when we when we when we work with our clients right because I I work for an IT company right entity data which is an IT company but um a great uh support or a great um partner when we transform the the development life cycle

right is also people right or human resources we you need to work with them right because these kind of workshops that you you can run right you need support you need to work with them right you know in terms of logistics in terms of agendas rooms and so forth but also uh it it's it's a good approach if all your your all your developer experience uh activities

you can align them to the the the people plan right how people wants to engage Talent how people want to retain talent and so forth that is um as a developer or as a it leader you you can do a lot of stuff right um I recommend you to use gamification if you want to have a good way you know a funny way and and maybe more

engaged way to um sell these kind of new approaches to your team members and if you got if you can get the support from your local Human Resources team it's it's better right because they have they know the people much than much they know the people and also they have all that that that the logistic there so yeah it's also another recommendation I guess the the big

kind of interesting thing is it's very disarming as well right because it's like you know you you're talking about serious things at the end right like what it turns into but you're treating it in what seems like an unserious way so it's almost like you are inherently going to get less resistance there might be the people like I I want to get back to work this this

not serious enough but outside of that it's that classic thing of like you know the difference between trying to tell someone something has to be a certain way and showing them or like you know the I think the classic one is um I had a friend he really likes his beard he likes it to be high percentage alcohol we gave him a an alcohol free beer and

he drunk it like yeah oh oh that's really good yeah yeah the hament oh wow so so wow if something like I mentioned right in the presentation Thea moments right um I noticed that working closer with business right I know what they are doing I I know I I I know what they want we can work together for the same approach right because at the end they

share the same goal which is move the ball the softw the faster as as they can in the flow in the in the flow development cycle right with quality with ra reliability and and passing all the the the quality aspects right so yeah I think that is quite important and and maybe maybe I can I can mention something some real nice experience I remember that after we

run this game W with with some client at the the day after after that uh in in the um we notice that some of the team members from testing from developer from operations and and business they had lunch together you know yeah that was awesome right because we noticed that because we went to a restaurant and we saw them right having lunch together and that's great because

that is part of the not technical end because yeah at the end devops is is technical stuff right continuation deployment engineering stuff but as as Google said right if you don't take care of people first no matter what you are doing most probably you're going to fail most probably I just like to imagine like 20 years from now like you have the story of how you brought

those two best friends together and they've known each other now for 30 years something like that but Bo I've only known you 45 minutes but I can tell it's been absolute pleasure uh we are coming to the end of the talk but uh if anyone wants to reach out to you you seem like the type of person that not only would like to talk to them you'd

probably like to play a game with them so um absolutely folks if you do want to talk to him be sure to but ho the pleasure has been all mine and hopefully we'll talk to you again real soon thank you