About this talk
This session addresses the challenges women face in the tech industry, highlighting why many are leaving or unable to enter the field. Moderated by Nikita, founder of an accessibility consultancy, the discussion features experts Makda and Gabby, who share their experiences and research on this issue. They dive into the impact of gender bias and unconscious assumptions in predominantly male work environments. Both speakers emphasize the importance of inclusive leadership and allyship, suggesting systemic changes in recruitment and progression policies. They also explore the significance of mentorship and sponsorship for women in tech, stressing the need for environments that support diversity and help individuals thrive.
Full transcript
Um, we're good to go, right? >> Yeah. Can chief if if uh can anyone hear us? Yeah. Can you hear us? Great. Perfect. >> Great. Thank you. Thank you for the sign. Um, welcome everyone to today's discussion. Uh, we have a very interesting topic. Uh, it is about why women are leaving tech or what's keeping us from entering the industry and more importantly uh what can tech
leaders do about this. Um before we get into it, just a quick round of introductions. My name is Nikita. I am the founder of Purple Inc. uh and accessibility consultancy based here in Amsterdam. Um with the mission to uh help businesses get more accessible across their digital ecosystem, strategy, workplace, culture, products and you know the whole lot. Um I have the pleasure of moderating today's session and
I have two lovely speakers with me. On my left is Makda. Uh Makda is the founder of Indigo Diversity Consulting. She brings 20 years of experience uh from international corporate uh with deep expertise in intercultural and inclusive leadership. uh she brings um awareness. She she talks about awareness uh in cultural workspace and cultural dynamics uh as well on why some you know how can that be influencing
on some people advancing into tech and some people getting left behind. Welcome. Uh and we have Gabby. Uh Gabby is a product engineering and people leader with 20 years of uh experience uh building complex software and leading people and high performing teams which which makes her perspective pretty unique when it comes to you know what what is it like to be working in technical environments. Uh Gabby
is an engineering manager at Simpower uh and the managing director of She-Sharp, a Dutch nonfor-profit community um where she works in empowering women and non-binary individuals uh to uh enter and thrive the in the tech industry. So let's get started. Um first question, how do we know uh that this trend is coming about that women are leaving >> the industry from your experience? >> Um how do
we know? Well, I can tell you um about my my experience and my perspective on on that. Um I work a lot with uh big organizations, some of them in in in the tech space, not only um and whenever we start talking about inclusion um we start unpacking the topics of um the team dynamics that are at play. And with that very often uh the topic of
bias and assumptions comes to surface very quickly. And gender bias is something that uh needless to say is one of one of the themes that very quickly surfaces as uh as the reality a lot of women experience in um heavily male-dominated environments. Tech being one of them, not the only one, but of course here we are talking about about that space. Um so I hear a lot
of uh stories, a lot of experiences from women working in those environments. >> Um where where that is a a lived experience. Um we talk about those micro moments, those um subtle acts of exclusion as the official term for for that experience uh states. But you can think of the moments where um there's certain assumption being made about your capability or there is a moment where someone
takes on your idea and runs with it in a meeting. Um minutes later someone else repeats it and it becomes a valid idea. um moments where um women in that case, but often marginalized groups overall or minority groups overall are being put in more admin supportive roles or assumed to be doing admin and supportive roles. All of those micro moments added on build on on the experience
of am I really valued here? Is this really a place where I can grow, where I want to grow? And ultimately over time compounding led to what you've introduced as as what we know it's happening. >> Right. Right. And how about you Gabby? >> Uh can you hear me? Okay great. Uh yeah I mean I I absolutely resonate with what you're talking about here Magda. As I've
worked in these environments I've I felt like I was being excluded you know since I studied engineering. There's you're always one of few. So I think naturally >> it feel that sense of belonging is not naturally there and that that plus behaviors that compounds are definitely something that I felt feeling left out uh having comments made my opinions doubted and you know I've spoken to a lot
of other women in the industry since and found that I'm not alone in that um through sheep we've got this large community and the number of people who join and say this is what I'm experiencing and it's not until actually we talk to other people that we realize oh it's not just us I'm But, you know, there's this feeling when you're just one of few, you've got
no one to talk to, that maybe you're being overly sensitive, you're seeing something that's not really there and you doubt yourself. >> But it's not just our feelings. Um, stats, you know, there's research that backs us up as well. Uh, there's a lot of reports that been done on this. The Athena factor, I think, is a really widely cited report. There's been two versions of it and
we've seen consistent research shows that about 50% of women are leaving tech in all or all different roles but um even more so in engineering roles over 50% are leaving tech by the age of 35 or the mid-career stage. >> So that's somewhere by I think usually 10 years in the industry which really isn't very long and that is I think about double the rate of attrition
of men. >> Wow. >> It's it's pretty significant. So we've got our own learned, you know, experiences, but we're actually seeing that in the statistics as well. >> Yeah. And and you know, in your research and also in your experiences, were there any particular reasons as to why is there a leading cause or a leading factor that may have contributed to, you know, having such a significant
difference between women and men? >> Go ahead. I don't think it's just one thing. I think it's multiple things. It's it's death by a thousand cuts. It's the little microaggressions that you're talking about. Maybe not even intended. >> You know, I do think unconscious bias comes into this a lot, but conscious, you know, having your opinion doubted a >> Uh not having not seeing much of a
growth path for your career. I mean, due to maybe a lack of role models, a lack of promotions, women are promoted less than men typically at a different rate. So, that comes in. And then when you're in an environment that feels somewhat hostile over time, I think there's some point where we tend to question is this worth it? >> Um I know a lot is cited as
like question do people leave for firmly reasons for maternity and actually research shows that maybe 3% of people cited caregiving as a reason, >> right? >> I mean flexible workplaces are still important but actually it it's not that. Maybe when you have children, I'm not sure about this yet, but you start to question what your priorities are and what's more important. So, there may be a correlation
for that, but it's it still comes down to what where do I want to work and what's important to me. >> Yeah. Right. Makes sense. >> No, I think absolutely spot on. to build on on on that thread, what I hear and and see indeed working a lot with um with with groups in uh in those settings is that well take that maternity leave example, right? Um
we we hear that often, you know, women choose to have children, they they leave or they they get other priorities. Um, I want to actually start talking to working moms or women who have been uh choosing to to start a family and are coming back to work environment and especially in a tech environment, >> their experience isn't necessarily um uh the the one that you would you
would want to uh to see. often times the assumptions that are being made before you even talk to the person about what are their priorities now is she actually willing to or is that parent because same goes for for working dads right >> willing to actually take on that project um instead of um assume and therefore kind of creating a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy right oh
that person is not going to be uh ready for that promotion this year or that project is probably too burdensome. Let's not let's not go there. Right? And that taking away of agency and therefore taking away of course a very concrete steps in progression in career >> is something that um that moment in in in in life uh translates to. >> Yeah. Start to question it. >>
And one one other thing I wanted to to echo what you just said which is it's unintentional in a sense. We we I think need to realize that a lot of those things happen from the best intentions. I mean we could talk probably another half an hour about wrong intentions and people you know who who bring those to work but here it doesn't necessarily come from uh
an intention to exclude >> but yet there's still that gap. We can have the best of intentions and still the behavior >> or the comments or that moment can feel exclusionary. >> Yeah. Hold on that thought because I would love to kind of dig deep on you know how can we flip from unintention to actually being aware about the unintentional behavior. I just want to you know
come back uh to something what you were mentioning as well Gabby from your experience you know um having you know environments where uh it is intense it is hardcore what is the role of AI do you feel is playing in all of this because I feel like AI is just in adding to that intensity >> in some ways. Uh it's hard to say exactly what, but I
think we're all seeing AI is like it's a cultural transformation right now. It's transforming the way we work and I work mostly with engineers. So I see how day-to-day it's changing the way we work and I have to wonder how it impacts this what we're talking about like is it is it changing how women are feeling. I think we've seen historically that especially probably for junior people
um women can be slower to adopt new technologies and it it's generally like a l not necessarily a lack of wanting to but a lack of resources and availability for help for support. So if that compounds then you're going we're going to find that women are falling behind and that's just going to add to the issue. Yeah. I mean we can also talk about AI and bias
and things but I think actually like in day-to-day roles >> to keep >> we need to encourage and ensure that everyone is still having the same opportunities to manage this transformation and not be negatively impacted or um perceived because of it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. And you know so you touched upon it a little bit earlier you know for our tech leaders and engineers in the
audience uh what are some of the things that you know you would recommend and also you've seen as best practices perhaps in >> in you know your line of work from your perspectives that you know the audience can walk away with some very tangible tips um for them. >> Yeah I'm happy to to take it on. Um well I would say on on a broader um systemic
uh uh level there is a there's of course a lot we can do in terms of policies in terms of you know in um uh how do we look at uh recruitment? How do we look at progression? Who do we promote? Uh how do we evaluate performance? Right? all of those systemic level things which which uh which are very important to kind of enable women to even
be there right to to actually have the pool of talent that is diverse. >> Um but a second part which I often find is very undervalued and maybe underappreciated is the skills and competencies in leadership and in team members to actually work with diverse talent. So you can have the most you know inclusive policy out there but if if people on the ground so to say don't
know how right and that how is that is that skill gap >> in being able to recognize your own bias having that self-reflection knowing that I might not know and being okay with with that having that curiosity to ask rather than assume um hearing around you how decisions are being made because on the leadership level it's not only about of course how do you show up but
each of the leaders can influence how how those conversations are being had around them. So having the courage and with that comes uh a bit of a um tool set to intervene in moments where I hear oh that comments are we really sure that's true >> or how how do we know this is true >> right right >> who who says right have we actually checked with
that group or with that person these are the moments with very tangible uh uh impact on what what happens right later on and I've you know I call them those those micro moments or kind of everyday allyship where >> everyone really can um can start playing a role in >> Yeah. And also having a baseline awareness of you know what works what doesn't work because yeah >>
you know all teams are different right at the end of the day. Yeah, makes >> Uh, absolutely. To what Magda said, I I think back a lot on my career. So, you know, it's personal reflection a lot and I've been lucky enough that I have had worked with a lot of both women and allies along the years like especially in managers. I found managers really important to
that to give me the support and encouragement to take on management roles and more senior positions. without that I cannot imagine I would have I would be where I am today. So if you are in that position I think have that conversation with probably everyone in your team actually but especially the women ensure that they are supported. Um whoever you are have that conversation make sure it's
clear that you're open to talking to them about what it feels like what they can do more. Sponsorship is really big. Um I'm personally like a really big fan and I think it's really important to have mentors throughout your career. Sponsors are like the next level on top of that. So having people who can say your name in different rooms um make sure that people have heard
of you know what you've achieved uh in in terms of promotions in terms of performance reviews give people visibility because sometimes some of and I'm not talking about everyone but at least I know for myself it's really hard to try and become visible yourself and so having someone else support you through that uh just can make the world of difference in ways that you probably don't even
realize. >> Yeah, it can go a long way. >> Yeah, for sure. But um I've heard actually a term uh which which is um obviously based on on some of the data you were quoting earlier that women tend to be over mentored and under sponsored >> and there is also something to be said about how do we look at that uh stated problem right uh overall who's
whose job is it to fix it [laughter] >> and to me I I I find it both of course important to be empowering women you know um supporting um uh giving them the tools and and and and uh I would say the the on the job training but the true change doesn't come from from fixing women or any of the of the minoritized groups. It comes from
actually changing the environment around them. >> Mhm. >> And that is what I meant about the diversity competencies of of leaders of decision makers of people who are uh around right who can become a bit better equipped to to to helping that. Yeah, that's absolutely right. And I think also if you're in that position of leadership or in a position where you you can have that >>
look at your stats, >> like at least ensure you're doing the right reviews, look at your gender pay differences, look at promotions, look at how many women verse men are in different leadership positions, and just question yourself. Does is this what I want it to look like? Or are we doing the right thing here? It may not mean a change but at least I think >> people
to start reflecting on >> is this what we want >> right and you know for employees for team members who are just you know in it plugged in working so hard what does it look like to actually seek sponsorship because I do think there is a difference between mentorship and sponsorship as you very rightly so you know pointed out but then being being empowered >> to go
out and seek for sponsorship. You know, is that something from your experience or you know in your team management experience like you would tell your team on how to actually go out there and seek sponsorship? What are the right language and tools if you if you have anything to share? >> I think it's really tough to say like how do you go and request sponsorship? I know
like in my career over time I've learned certain things like trying to be forward thinking about telling your manager and people around you what you're doing is is important otherwise no one knows. >> Truth is no one knows as much as we think they know about [laughter] us. That's just a fact. But to do that in a way that doesn't feel uncomfortable or like you're bragging even
though it's just facts is really difficult. M I I think in this situation I would be encouraging other people to think about how they could do it for peers, not just women, really everyone. >> There's so much value in recognizing other people's work and and giving them credit or talking about it in front of other people. >> And I I think that's just a general behavioral change
I'd like to see more of. >> Yeah, makes sense. >> Spot on. And I think uh to to build on that, it's it's also um leading by example, right? And I see that a lot in the conversations I'm having with with leaders and organizations once we do go through uh that conversation as as the group is one person starts doing that second person starts doing that more
and slowly but steadily it becomes a new norm >> right so if you are that leader >> reach out and say okay is there something I could do I would love to be your sponsor I see your potential I want >> could we you know would you would you like that it really starts with with breaking that that that norm which which is the agreed norm. >>
Um and someone uh someone doing it differently. >> And equally uh for all the women in the room uh or or people who feel like they would benefit from that. Um >> think about who is your trusted ally? who could be the person who either could open the doors to the sponsorship because sponsorship requires a little bit of a different hierarchical position, right? Typically, it works best
if it's someone who has more power than you in in opening those doors. >> But it doesn't have to be that you go directly to the person, >> Think strategic who could be that person who could open the door to a >> Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. Well, thank you so much. Um any last uh comments uh you know on inclusive culture and building inclusive cultures and
tech beyond just policy >> uh I think regardless of how you feel about this topic um we all want to work in an environment that we enjoy working in. I've talked to multiple people about the topic of engagement and almost everybody will always say the reason I'm still in this job today is because of people I work with. >> So why don't we make more of an
effort to ensure the people we work with and in this particular thing I'm I'm thinking more about women but everyone has a place that they enjoy coming to work every day and that's on us as people as colleagues as friends of people we work >> Makes sense. Cool. All right. Well, um, we have a few more minutes. Just want to make sure that before we hit time,
any questions from the audience. >> We do have a mic that can go around, so we can ask that question uh with the mic Well, otherwise I think we'll be we'll be around um you know for a few minutes in case you want to come over and chat with us. Happy to hear your thoughts, your observations um and answer any questions. Thank you so much Gabby and
Makda. It was a really nice conversation. Thank you for sharing your insights and uh have a nice evening >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you.
