Challenges and Success of Crypto Dutch Builders

In this talk, the speakers discuss the experience of being crypto builders in the Netherlands, emphasizing the importance of decentralization in the blockchain space. They share their personal journeys and insights, highlighting the diverse motivations that drive individuals in the crypto ecosystem, from public good initiatives to profit-oriented ventures. The conversation also touches on the implications of regulatory challenges and high-profile court cases, which have led to a chilling effect on the industry. The panelists stress the significance of building a supportive community for new entrants in crypto, encouraging participation, collaboration, and innovation.

We do get a go. Wow. Welcome everyone to this uh not panel about AI. There was something else. We're here to talk about what it is to be a crypto Dutch builder. The challenges, the pitfalls, the positive. I don't know. We're going to do a short uh round of introductions and then I just want to sort of freestyle this conversation and really allow this panel to just

exchange. Apparently, we might take a few questions at the end if we feel like it. Um but I'm just going to start by introducing myself. I'm Elellanar. I'm the founder of Crypto Canal and I run a crypto community here in the Netherlands. And I would say that we are not afraid to be political. And I would let my wonderful guests here today introduce themselves and just tell

a few words about what you're doing. Cool. Hey, David. Okay. Hello. Check. Check. >> We're good. Um, so I'm David, a builder. Been in crypto for a while. Uh, probably since 2014 or something. Was contracting with Coinbase for a while. Uh, then also worked in DeFi with Ave. Uh, so I was a force engineer at Ave and then now still building in crypto. And my current product

is called X23.ai. and we're focused on uh building uh tools to increase participation in Dows and in in >> Thank you. >> I'm Rosco. I'm the founder of Revoke.cash uh which is a security focused platform for crypto. Um, so basically whenever you're using crypto, you have to give these applications access to your tokens and we allow you to manage that access and revoke it when you don't

need it anymore to keep your money safe. And I've been working on that as a start as a side project in 2019 while I was working for other companies in the crypto space. And now since 2022, uh this has been my full-time um job as a as a cryptodutch >> Ah you used it used the term no going back. >> Hi I am Emanuel Franchi. I am

the CEO and founder of Dusk. I'm also the CTO of Ampex which is uh a security exchange and I love to collect uh different kind of uh uh titles for which I have absolutely no competence but somehow I pretend very well. So Dusk is a layer one is an open permissionless um protocol. And one thing that I really love, if I can get out of this, you

know, character building thing that I am doing right now and say and and and actually say something that is very positive, it's the fact that you said crypto builder, right? Not crypto entrepreneur because essentially crypto shouldn't really have entrepreneurs, right? We are talking about protocols and protocols are not organizations that are for profits and profits are part of entrepreneurship most often than not. So I really like

the fact that you are basically talking about cryptobuilders. We can we can agree to disagree. You are definitely you know you can be wrong. >> And um yes I'm one of the cryptobuilders trying also to be an entrepreneur because I am also the CTO of a of a for-profit company that is using uh the the crypto protocol as well. And that's me. Well, first of all, I

just I when we when we create these panels and I'm hurting cats and I'm trying to give you guys sort of a a glimpse into what it is to be a crypto builder, uh I didn't realize that actually I had put a a bit of AI, a bit of security, and a bit of privacy, which are things that are really core to crypto. So, I'm really glad

that all three could be here today. And I'd like to dive in first into this definition I guess of cryptobuilder because it's a very abstract concept like we know about crypto but we rarely see the people that are in the the back end or the front end but who are building products. Would you consider yourself uh overall a crypto builder and what does that mean for you

to be a cryptobuilder? Yeah, I think like Amanda said, I think the term cryptobuilder is a lot more broad than just entrepreneurs. And I like that um that sort of inclusivity of the term. You know, anyone can be a builder in the crypto space. Um whether you have a company or you're just doing something by yourself, you're building protocols, you're building companies. I think all of these

things encompass CryptoBuilder. And I think I really like that term. Um I would definitely consider myself a crypto builder above other terms that I could use um to to describe myself. Um so yeah, I think it's a great term to use. >> Do you think that there's a what is maybe in our industry more than in web 2, why do you think the the word builder is

so important >> versus like >> because there is no product market fit? Okay, >> that's that's why uh I mean the entirety of web 3 is based essentially on adoption rather than profit. And because it is based on adoption, then it is much more convenient, much better, much simpler to actually have many different people that are building something either a protocol or an application on top of

the protocol because again that is what the adoption looks like. Since it is not about basically making profit all these crypto organizations they normally unless there is a tight product market fit for which essentially somebody's paying something but until until that happens then you need more and more adoption more and more people that are essentially adopting the instruments that you are building. So you need to appeal

to other builders in order to create application in the hope that somehow these applications are going to be used. Do you agree on this uh this aspect basically this sort of uh adoption first and money comes later or is that something we need to keep in mind? if I I I just on I'm not sure if I agree with it but uh on another point I was

thinking that uh the the bu the term builders that's like a more mimemetic term that was sort of the culture of crypto was previously very trading holding focused and then we came up with this term like building right and that was against the traditional trader bitcoin huddle and it was like bidd so so that's so we had a focus on trying to sway the industry that way

so that's like Ethereum, EVM chains much more biddable focus, less on the trading focus. So, I think that's that's how I I see it. Uh, in terms of like crypto Dutch builder, I'm not Dutch, right? Firstly, um, crypto, I don't know, it's such a loaded term and it's like I'm not really in it for like the crypto. I'm in it to like add value, like build products,

not like just crypto. It's like whether whatever technology is useful. Um, crypto isn't really useful in all use cases. So, so I think maybe people get a bit too hung up on like sort of these these nitpicking terms. Um, but yeah. >> And what about the the for profit uh aspect that Emanuel brought up or >> uh what was the question? Are we are we building products

for more builders or are we trying to build products for this mainstream adoption to be seen >> or are we trying to build these projects in a more like traditional capitalistic approach of where's the profit, where's the business model, what's the what are what are the revenue streams >> that you guys have as builders. I think that's something very interesting to dive into because again I think

not many people realize how you guys live. We're not just all doing this uh for funsies. >> true. On the profit motive part, I I think this like any any um emerging field like there's a huge time of experimentation. So we've been experimenting for like 10 plus years. So like they're bound to be some people that are profit motivated, others that are more public goods motivated and

others that are building it just for the the fun of it. Um and I think that's okay. Uh that's just the way the industry is built. Luckily for us, crypto is inherently like money. like you can do tokens then you sort of fund yourself there's a market it's the only true market that still exists out there so so there's some interesting threads that we could sort of

pull out more more in that but yeah >> I think I'm going on different tangents >> but it's fine I just think the the the if it if there's no salary if there's no like big person paying you the these are not 9to-5 people uh you're you're probably 247 type of people I don't know exactly but who's how do you live off of being a crypto builder

more than just trading and uh that maybe >> well there are I I would say there are three different ways right so one way is you on board VCs so you get a shitload of cash early on in order to create fake tokens that do >> questionable things >> and then you sell those and you also pocket some some of the VC money but you know VCs

actually dump on retail and that's how they make their money. This is one of the most profitable business for uh for VCs and big investment investment institution. The second one is you actually try to get product market fit. So you try basically to create something that has got utility that is actually a real real currency. Now in order for or that has got >> potential features. So

one of the currency features the currency potential is basically velocity. So the more there is velocity in actually how some kind of asset is traded the more basically that particular um that particular token if you want if we want to talk talk about tokens is uh approaches uh value or a certain particular definition of value. In order to create this velocity, this token needs to be useful

for something and there aren't really many different uh many different uh fields of application in which essentially these systems are useful. The one that we have found is basically the capability of decentralizing financial market infrastructure because financial market infrastructure they deal with uh certain specific intermediation that you want to uh get rid of while those that use this intermediation they make money. So that's the second the

second way. This is a much longer way and normally, >> you know, it's not always successful because again, you need to get product >> And the third the third way is memes. You basically just put put a funny hat on a cat. >> No. >> And make and make a token that is that is uh you know resembling something fluffy and beautiful. >> Okay. Rosco, maybe you

have another way of let's cut the >> memes are some people will use that but it's a false method. >> I think I think besides these methods there's definitely other methods. Um and bike >> no like >> oh like yeah like um so I think I think I I'm in a pretty good position to to talk about that. Um since I'm building revokec consciously as a public

good. So I don't have a specific profit model built into this product, but I think as David mentioned before, crypto is inherently money. So everything is inherently financialized and there are bad things about that. like it sometimes you don't want it to all be money but at the same um that does mean that we're we have this interesting dynamic bigger organizations within crypto can fund public goods

can actually make available uh pretty big pools of money to fund these kind of projects that grow the value of the EOS system and because it's all so financialized, I think they can still make enough profit individually while also providing funding for those public goods. Whereas in a lot of other ecosystems, public goods funding is a lot more difficult. Um because there's always, you know, the the

sort of tragedy of the commons where no one profits enough individually to kind of fund these kind of projects. um to help benefit everyone else in the ecosystem. Um, so I think that's that's one of the really interesting parts of crypto that uh there are a lot of people that that are interested in finding ways to to fund these kind of public goods projects. And um I

think that's that's definitely one of the most interesting ways um to to try to build a project in crypto. >> I think uh versus I think in the traditional system where you might depend on the state to step in and through taxes here it's sort of like a self self-managed industry and where there's enough funding to go for products that are not just profit oriented. So, I

think that's really interesting. Um, I wanted to dive a bit into the fact that we are here in Amsterdam, that we are lucky to be all in person. Um, what does it mean for you to be building here in the Netherlands? Uh we've had uh for those who are familiar with the case um Alexi Perzv a tornado developer uh was sentenced to five years in jail here

uh in the Netherlands. He is appealing the sentence um and he is the one of the founders and developers behind Tornado Cash. Um, has that court case, has that topic at all affected you personally or as a crypto builder here in the >> Yeah, I think um it's uh it sets a terrible precedent to give these kind of sentences for essentially crypto builders. Um, I think not

every crypto builder in the space has as much sort of risk involved to to be persecuted like that. But I think um it definitely is something that I think a lot of people before this happened were mostly building because they were they believed in what they were doing. they were, you know, very ideologically driven. Um, and then I I know I I know people personally that have

stepped away from their projects um because this happened and because um I mean also the tornado cash case in in the US, there's there's a lot of persecution happening and I know people that have stepped back from their projects uh privacy or or otherwise. >> Yeah. >> Um that I'm sure wouldn't have happened without that. Um, personally I I wouldn't stop doing what I'm doing. I also

think I'm personally at a lot less risk because I don't specifically do things with privacy. I think that's that's something that that is at a lot higher risk to be persecuted. But still the I think it it is an attack on all of crypto and I would definitely understand it if people feel less safe building. Um, but I do think that's a shame. Thank you. >> You're

building a uh privacy layer one >> That is correct. So, >> sorry to like stick my finger like that into the topic, but is that something? >> It is. Uh yeah, it is. Well, the uh for for those of the the audience that do not know what happened, then tornado cache is this anonymizing protocol and one of the developers of this uh anonymization protocol has been uh

has been prosecuted here in the Netherlands. Big case. Um, interestingly enough, I'm not really sure how many people actually have been reading the the you know, the sentence of the um of the of the case. I have and what has been contested to the guy was not exactly the capability of building the protocol. No, >> but uh to have aided uh the you know money laundering and

a lot of different kind of illegal financial activities. Now this obviously if this happened then you know there is merit to the case but of course I don't believe that there is a lot of merit to the case. I believe that that is actually a pretense in order to you know uh send a message to everybody that is in fact working on a privacy preserving protocol because

let's remind everybody that when we are talking about blockchain we're talking about open DTS. You can see on the main DTS on the on the main ledgers out there, you can basically see a lot of different kind of transactions where they are going and when you are masking some of these um transactions considering that mostly we are talking about decentralized systems there isn't anyone to blame. It

is decentralized by definition. There isn't a central specific unit that can be blamed. And therefore when there is there cannot be blamed there is no accountability. When there is no accountability government and regulations become very nervous and therefore they use that as a pretense to basically send a message to the whole industry. So that's and as a you know as the founder of a of a of

a protocol that basically tended to strike the right balance between privacy and compliance. Of course, what we have seen is that the regulations just became stricter and stricter. >> Right. So to the point in which we had to introduce in our protocol, we had to introduce certain uh data in order to be able to uh you know for instance prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that

who is sending a privacy preserving transaction is in fact uh >> that person. >> Yeah. Is in fact that person and so on and so forth. and that um on so basically with by regulating the industry in this manner it changes the nature of the products. Would you say David that with these new regulations with Mika and other things that it's changing how builders are building like

it's changing their their products basically? >> Uh yeah in a way I mean I think the thing with regulators is like regulators will keep regulating and and you know using the knowledge they have. So one of the challenges they have is understanding the technology right the same with tornado cache and those things these are very um technical products even for technical people it's quite hard to understand

sometimes um so having regulators understand that is is really difficult firstly so essentially they regulate things that they don't really understand right which is like sort of weird but then the other thing is that regulators maybe haven't caught on to yet is that a lot of builders not all but a lot of builders like myself like we're quite transient right so like the regulations happen if it

doesn't suit a certain product and the person really wants or the team wants to build that product they will like just do jurisdictional arbitrage into some other more friendly jurisdiction and and you see that that's why a lot of um companies are based in like Switzerland >> I don't know Cayman Islands >> Cayman Islands Bahamas what that's why you have all these weird structures >> um only

now with like Trump coming in in America now that the regul the the SEC and all those regulators start to come a lot more crypto friendly start to see many more crypto companies coming back to the US, >> right? So, in in a sense, I think the the things like Mika, they they they like it's like a giant sledgehammer that is useful for some big use cases,

but the tiny builders get crushed underneath all that weight. So, then they just leave, right? But they're sort of the future of the industry in a >> Yeah. I want to just make sure I I guess like as a uh event organizer with people who Rosco you mentioned people who you've know who maybe have stepped out of the industry or I I've also witnessed people like refuse

to come to the Netherlands or who are afraid of coming to the Netherlands and with with this court case happening here. This chilling effect is unacceptable in my opinion. like as a as someone who's been advocating for cryptocurrencies and the use of cryptocurrencies, we're shooting oursel in the foot um by basically yeah scaring people off from building here in the Netherlands. Sure. And um I don't know,

we're at a big web two conference and I and I look at all these uh you know sort of approved uh uh subjects and I and I want to make sure that we on the fringes can keep innovating and can keep um yeah building for crypto for better or worse. I' I'd also just recognize that um Ellie through Crypto canal is one of the the main uh

organizers and and people that helped push uh let the crypto industry know about sort of Alexi and you helped really push that to the forefront of the the consciousness of at least crypto Twitter I think. So you did a really good job there and >> it just really bugged me. >> I just I thought it was just so [ __ ] unjust. >> Yeah. And sorry, but like it

I get very triggered, but I guess it's like this emotion I think of uh I didn't feel that it was just Alexi on trial. It felt like it could have been any one of you >> because actually that's what was the scariest part is that I was sitting there in court and the the and I know I'm like we're ranting a lot about now this court case,

but I think the the feeling was that um the injustice could have hit any one of us. It was not just the fact that it was privacy. It was not the fact that it was just a mixer. It was the fact that this person had worked and was advocating for crypto and that's where I was drawing the line. Um >> they're persecuting the code like written code.

>> So we'll see now that OFAC in the US was reversed. Uh Alexi was released. I have a a tiny I I can see some light at the end and I I want to make sure that here on this uh at this event and I thank the organizers for giving us this stage actually to discuss this but to bring more awareness to it to just counter the

chilling effect that this has had has on our industry. Um we're here to talk about challenges and successes. Maybe you could share um why why you are so excited still about building in crypto and uh maybe one big one big success that we can uh when we when we look back we can think oh what what makes you proud basically about what you're building today and uh

something you really like about it. >> Well one thing that makes me incredibly proud is the fact that you know I haven't been deviating from the mission of of Dusk since the very beginning. So we started in 2018. The idea was from 2017 and the idea was to make everybody be able to participate in the financial of real businesses, right? What does that mean? It means basically

that if you are a nobody, you can still lend hardware, you can still lend uh software. Well, actually you can run software and contribute to verify and validate actual financial transactions. This is something uh for instance that we have been we we have been introducing at the stock exchange which I I also collaborate with which is aex. So now part of the infrastructure of the stock exchange

this regulated stock exchange is in fact run by people by people like me like by people like her by people like him you know everybody can in fact just run a node a dusk node and help validating verifying clearing and settling transaction of actual product for instance bond sales or investment or uh you know trading in uh in equities in stocks in uh facilitating the clearance of

digital euros >> token that in fact are uh you know exchange for actual financial products. So this is a huge success because it basically disintermediates the financial market because so far the only ones that could in fact get paid to clear transactions to settle transactions were clearing banks for what concerned the cash lag and CSD central security depository for what concerned the equities. Now with the new

regulation with Micah for instance, it is possible for people like us to actually when there is a a license entity that gets the DTSS license. Again, nobody said that regulations are easy, right? But when this when these uh prerequisites are met, then Micah allows for somebody that is not a financial institutions to actually participate in the core infrastructure of the financial market. I mean, this is pretty

freaking cool and this is probably the best success that I ever had and I will ever have in my life. >> Congratulations. I think for me um it's very rewarding to work on a security product. I see there's hundreds of thousands people that frequently use the product and that are helped um not lose all their money. I know that that scams and hacks and all of that

is still a huge thing in crypto. Um, I I wish it wasn't, but the reality is that that it's still a very very frequent occurrence. Um, and like I said, it's very rewarding to be able to help combat that aspect. Um, and and see the impact that it's making on real people. And I touched on this before, but I'm also very grateful that I have been able

to do this um to offer this as a public good to so to be able to build this um without having to charge users for anything, without having to put ads on the platform. And I really do think that that would only be possible within crypto due to the things that I touched on before, due to the sort of unique economic incentives that exists within crypto. And

yeah, I'm I'm very grateful to be able to to build the company in that way. >> Thank you. Thank you for keeping everyone safe. >> Yeah, revoke revoke.cash. That's a >> Excellent. Excellent product. very very useful for everyone. Um I think I think the biggest thing for me would be um like for for all of us that have been in the industry for more than a few

years is that like we've just survived like you know I mean it's all my life I mean >> but in America I had the anti-crypto army like literally like called anti crypto army trying to shut down crypto companies like persecuting SEC you know in Europe like debanking I had banks that rejected me for whatever reasons. >> We should ask a few banks here by the way to

accept a few crypto businesses. >> True. I mean they they should I mean there's some banks um that are crypto friendly um >> but like just to survive through this this environment that was so adversarial and now we've made it to like a trillion plus market cap where like banks are coming on board like you say you become part of financial infrastructure it's like taken more seriously

it became like a US presidential election issue in Europe but yeah that's fine >> that's I mean there's there's experimentation everywhere right um and and then also you know these older institutions or organizations are, you know, starting to try to educate themselves about crypto and blockchain and all that sort of stuff. So, I think that's sort of the biggest thing is that just like being a survjs

developer, you know, building whatever you build and it's like everything's fine. You get bank accounts, you talk about it, no one judges you. It's like you're not a scam. Like everything's fine, right? But like as a crypto builder for a few years, >> firstly you started as like some weirdo anarchist >> and then it's like I don't know you must be a scam or like some hacker

or just like a very dodgy thing. So now we're starting to become more legitimate. >> Um which which I'm I'm really happy about, Brad. Yeah, >> fair enough. Well, um thank you so much. I I'm tempted to take one question from the audience because I think uh >> that guy there has got a question. >> Who has a question? >> Yeah. Yeah, you. That guy. That guy.

>> That guy. >> Do you want to come? Stand up and come to us. >> Stand up. That guy >> or shout. >> Come on. >> You I applaud. Really? >> What is your question? >> No, go ahead. >> You're the chosen one. Otherwise, he has a question. >> Go. >> Who's the first one? >> The first one who goes into the block gets processed. It's >>

yes. >> So, so you talk about web two and web three like you know the traditional developers versus the crypto developers or the builders. So how so what would be a good starting point for people to move from let's say this traditional development to this one because this is also like you said you know you start out with some anarchist or some scamming artist or these kind

of things but also legimate people do want to experiment and try so what would be your suggestion as a starting point like you know okay how should someone start or yeah like you know where to start >> I have an answer my answer is too good I have to place it >> go crypto canal. Yeah. >> Come to our meetups. I would say like um like in

any place I I have to show my own stuff. No, but um you see come to us after the this panel. Uh walk up to us, ask questions, go to meetups, go to your local meetup wherever you live. You will find crypto people. And I would say that meeting people in real life is where the magic can happen. And that's where really you can be inspired and

realize that all of this is possible. And um joining events, joining a hackathon, joining a conference, your local meetup, those are all places where you can realize that actually these builders are real uh that we care, that we have values and um that it's a it's a wonderful industry to join. So I would like to unless it's another answer to this. >> So I have a question

for you actually. What are you interested in? Are you interested in development in technology? Are you interested in business development? Are you interested in how would you would you like to enter? So what is what is interesting for you is technology and innovation. I can I can repeat what what you're saying. >> Yeah. Just you'll see the moment you come you will you will have open arms.

People will want to teach you will want to onboard you and and there's there's only one thing is that it's a very open and permissionless environment. So you can just come and and show that you're curious and you you will be welcomed. That's all I I can say by experience and that's what I've seen over the years. >> So yeah. >> Yes. But on a more practical

level uh if you if you want to start from uh from something concrete then you need to understand essentially why this this space exists and this space exists in my humble opinion. My colleagues here might might differ in their opinion and you're welcome to voice your your own opinion in case you in case you disagree but essentially it is about decentralization right so understanding exactly what decentralization

means in the field of application that you find you know the most interesting because technology and innovation can be applied to practically everything even to agriculture >> right so um So if you find um a a mean or if you understand if if you can imagine a need for decentralization in the field of application that you actually find interesting then you are probably 85% ahead of everybody

else that entered this this space. And if you can find a real good motivation to decentralize or disintermediate a process with the benefit of the participants in the process itself, then you are you are ahead of 99.9% of the different kind of >> Agreed. >> the very first step that I would do would be before even approaching the space is trying to understand the need for decentralization.

If there is no need for decentralization, then crypto or blockchain is actually a hindrance. Is basically a very expensive implementation detail that is going to suck your soul in and you are going to struggle to find a real motivation to be alive and you will basically die. >> Again, we're trying to like not scare these people too much. Um, but >> last uh let's wrap up. Any

last words just on that question uh Wesley who's actually a Dutch builder. Oh yeah. >> Um he has a open source framework called use web 3. Search for use three. It's like an XJS framework with like all the bits built in. Try that out. Experiment. It's all permissionless open source. So go for it. >> David Rosco Emanuel, thank you so much for agreeing to come to this

uh to this event. share a bit a little bit of insights from what it is to be a Dutch crypto builder. Thank you so much. Thank you to all of you. It's a wrap. Thank