About this talk
This talk features Pragya, an engineering lead at Adion, who discusses the concept of creative engineering and its importance in managing teams. Pragya emphasizes the need for creativity in problem-solving and leadership, particularly in addressing the diverse strengths and challenges within a team. The speaker shares personal anecdotes about navigating difficult situations, such as coaching a quiet team member to speak up in meetings and dealing with a tragic incident involving a colleague. Pragya also covers the transition from individual contributor to leadership, focusing on the importance of trust and communication. Additionally, the speaker reflects on the impact of AI in the workplace and the necessity for leaders to create safe environments for exploration and adaptation to new technologies. Overall, Pragya advocates for continuous learning and adapting leadership styles to foster an inclusive and productive team culture.
Full transcript
Should I go and ask him? Okay, here we are. >> Yeah, >> it's on. >> Yeah. >> Well, um I'm filling in for Austin today. I'm a senior product manager at Adion. I've been at Adion for around for almost eight months now. Before that I've been in product and fintech for about 10 years back in the UK as you can probably tell by the accents and I've
recently moved to Amsterdam and Aden and today I'm joined with Prager. Prager can you tell us a little bit about yourself? >> Yeah thanks DA my name is Prager. I'm an engineering lead at Aden. Um I take care of multiple different teams. So what my org or my teams is doing is that um we are a part of fighting fraud and financial crime. It sounds pretty cool
but in reality it's also very interesting. Um I'm originally from India. Um I joined Audience some 6 years ago and I have a background in computer. >> Cool. Well thank you for joining us today. So let's dive into the topic of the day. Pragia to you. What is creative engineering? Um well it's very simple in my mind engineering means that you're building something whether it's a software
or that you're building teams right and um in order to navigate through any ambiguous situation along with skills you also need creativity so that you whether you're fixing some bug which uh you do not see coming or you're fixing some situation within your team I think that you always need some form of creativity so this is where it is coming >> so it can be is thing
sort of a mindset that can be applied to any context in any situation. Okay, cool. And let's talk about this in the content in the context of managing a team. >> So, tell me about your leadership style and how you adapt it when you're working with people who you think operate differently to yourself. >> Yeah, I'm going to I'm going to say something very cliche, but bear
with me here. um thinking differently is not a bug, it's a feature, right? Um I think that the main thing is that you set a very very explicit goal for the people or for the team and then I at least let people be in their own creative space how they want to get to the goal. Now in my mind there are like and not in my mind
I read it in one of the books but I also apply it. There are two reasons why uh people do not do what they have been assigned to do. one they don't know how to do it and the other they don't want to do it. Now as a leader you need to figure out which is it. If they don't know how to do it then you upskill
them and if they don't want to do it then you motivate them. >> Now if you think of the team and different people in the team if there are different strengths then they also learn from each other right then I become redundant and I can relax. So this is how I try to build the team and it's really really important uh to have your first team who
you can learn from. If there are two people who are the same in their soft skills, core skills, their mindset, then one of them is redundant. This is how I see it. >> Okay, I like that. It's sort of a decision tree model in your mind, right? You get the problem, then you think, okay, do they need to be motivated? Do they need to be upskilled? And
then you take it from there. I like that approach. And when we talk about delivery, leadership isn't just about delivery, right? Sometimes you're expected to set, you're expected to stand up in a very human way, in a very human scenarios, which aren't always very textbook specific, right? >> No. >> Have you had experiences like this? And how have you navigated them? >> Yeah, I think um all
of a sudden you realize that you're the grown-up in the room and that's uh that can be very difficult. Sometimes um I have two examples that come to my mind. One is very uh individual problem is that she does not know that she's gold. And I know this sounds like a madeup story, but it's not. So what happens is that when we go into the discussions in
in a room full of hey there's a guy who's a staff engineer, another one who's a principal engineer, some engineering lead, some weepy, then she wouldn't speak up. So she would come to me in our one-on-one and she would tell me that hey this is what I think we should do. This is the idea and I think that her ideas are brilliant. So I would ask her
that hey why why don't you just go and speak in these group sessions? Why are you so quiet? And she said to me and I quote her, "Who am I to give opinions to these people?" And it made me really sad, you know, like she is she's brilliant but she feels so inferior for no particular reason. >> So um what I did was that I tried to
coach her in confidence and in communication but that's just theory. So I put her in these situations again and again and in the um earlier sessions I would prep her before we went into the discussions and then I was there in those discussions but I was just quiet and then she would look at me sometimes and uh I would I would just give her a nod but
I would be just quiet that hey let her let her um have her you know safe space. So here we are. I think uh 2 years ago this happened and um I think that she has a lot of respect. I'm not going to name her but you know her >> and we also gave her a raise. So that's a that's good. [laughter] >> The other story I
have is so from the team lead when I became an engineering lead like um from handling one team I started to handle multiple different teams. I was very new in that uh in that role that was like uh four years ago or something. And all the new teams that were coming to me, I didn't know them. I didn't know the team lead. I didn't know the engineers.
And what happened was that the product manager of one of the teams, he met with a very very tragic accident. And we did not know if was he was going to make it he's fine now. And the team lead was out of office. So I had to step in in front of the engineers and be that rock and also tell them this tragic news that you know
this has happened and it it still makes my palm sweaty that how did I go into this really difficult situation but I had to do it. So these are the things that you find yourself into and there are no books or or a checklist that is going to prepare you for that. But one thing that I've learned is that all these awkward and difficult situations are not
they're never going to be easy. None of these uh um uh tough conversations are going to be easy. But how your mind works is that if you've been in those situations before, then your mind is like, "Hey, if you've done that, I'm pretty sure you can do this again." You know, [laughter] so it just you just get used to it. >> Okay. Well, first of all, thank
you for sharing those examples. like it's you know it's not always easy to share this and I think it goes back to the creativity aspect right being a leader you never know what's going to be thrown at you every situation is unique >> and you just have to think okay what tools do I have in my tool kit to handle this and I think what I really
like as well is from the first example in that meeting you gave that person that nod right so it wasn't just that talk it was okay I'm here in this room with you and we're going to sort of do this together so yeah I like that >> and to aden you've had different roles and previous organizations, you've had different roles as well. Um, and you've transitioned from
IC to leader. >> And sometimes, as a lot of us in this room have experience, this means losing control, but also it means gaining accountability. How did you adjust to being responsible for the outcomes that delivered by others? >> Yeah. Um, it still gives me sleepless nights, so I'm not going to say that I've cracked it. uh well as a as an IC as an individual contributor
uh when I was working as an engineer there's you you get instant validation right your your code works and there's this dopamine hit >> the first transition that happened when I when I became the manager was that there there's no going to be nobody is giving you that dopamine hit anymore there's nothing like that and one trait that you have to cultivate is to have patience So
the results will show but after a while and what we are doing while this is happening is um creating trust with the team like not not just the trust with the team but also figuring out that hey can you trust them that they're going to be fine and they're going to deliver the results right and then you you you uh plant certain seeds you have certain ideas
out of 10 nine are not going to work one is going to work But at some point you gain that trust and uh this is how I at least I do it that you know the not losing your sleep over lack of control >> but I don't think that I don't think that this goes away. So you also have to keep in mind your your risk appetite
that for which projects you need to be very very uh on grounds and for which projects you can you can let them be. >> So it's very subjective I think. >> Okay. I like that as well because not only do you have to trust your team, you need to make sure you build them into a certain position where you can trust them, they also need to trust
you. And as cliche and as cheesy as this might sound, you also need to trust your gut, right? Because you can't work on everything all at once and give it all the same attention. >> You are also a product manager, right? Like you also have the same thing know that whether the engineers are working or not on the thing that >> you are hanging on to for
your career. >> Exactly. You can't go look at every single pull request, every single ticket. No, >> you need to have that >> even if you want to. No, you can't. one thing that people talk a lot about in leadership, but I don't think there's any book or anything that's really cracked this. I'd love to get your view on it, is managing up. And this is I'm
not sure how other people in the room feel, but I feel this is becoming increasingly more important as you grow. So, do you have any advice on I've seen you do this as well, and [laughter] I think you do it very well. So, I was wondering if there's any advice you can share with the room on your approach to So, if I put myself in the manager's
shoes, right? I believe that there is just one thing every manager is looking for. There's just one answer that every manager is asking themselves about you >> and that question is that can I rely on this person? That's it. Right? And if they're asking you questions, progress updates, whatever they're just trying to figure out, can I rely on this person? And different people have different ways or
different checklists in their minds that can I rely on this person, right? Um what I did in the past was and that worked that I made it very explicit with my manager that hey how do you how do you want me to communicate what what do you want? >> Um >> but then you also have to understand that your manager scope is bigger than your scope. So
the context switching is even more right they don't have the time >> for a lot of things. So for if there are some high visibility projects I mean you can imagine that their manager is also breathing down their neck right hey are we there yet are we there yet so you what you can do [laughter] is that you can give them progress updates there regularly but if
there are other projects like more operational ones where they're like you know what you just take care of it no news is good news um then then yeah just raise the flags whenever there's a problem but I think that you need to sit sit down with your manager and figure out what is going on in their mind when they're asking this question that can I rely on
you? >> Okay, so the foundation of it is they want to rely on you understanding what reliability means to them but also having empathy to the fact that they actually kind of have it worse because they have it at a bigger scale and they need these updates. Understanding what updates they need in what cadence, what level of detail as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And they're
forming that relationship. Okay. Yeah, I like that. >> And this is a bit of a a testy one, but maybe people in the room won't admit it, but I think most of us have been here. So, it's okay. Like, I think we can talk about it. What happens if you find yourself in a situation where you and your manager, you don't click? >> Yeah. Sometimes having a
leader that you don't click with, it could show you what sort of leader you don't want to be. And that is a good lesson. >> But I think there's a lot more to this >> Uh I mean, have you have you noticed this that when there is a a bad manager, the team bonds very nicely. >> Yeah. The trauma bonding, >> the trauma bonding against the the
the bad manager, right? So by default there is a good community. [laughter] No but but jokes aside I think that it's very valid and all of us have been in this situation right and um I think there's a lot of emotions involved right when when you don't want to work with your manager and you're stuck in this situation. So there's a it's a very emotionally uh heavy
situation you take it back home right you speak with your friend you speak with your partner about it. Um I give this advice to people and I know that this is very very hard. So I know that this is not easy but I mean at the end of the day it's just your job right you're doing you're doing your job your manager is doing their job and
if you there are certain things that are under your control and certain things that are not. For example, the things that are under your control is maybe a little bit that can you take the emotions out of the situation, right? And be explicit with your manager that hey, what do you want me to do? Create those boundaries. What do you want me to do? And this is
what I'm going to do, right? This this is what is under your control. After that, what is under your control is that um you focus on your work. And um I know that work speaks, right? Because you're not just you're not just working with your manager. You're working with a team and you also have other people in the organization who can be your mentor and your sponsor.
Your manager is your biggest sponsor. But there are other people also in the organization who can be your sponsor and who can speak up for you. And this advice I would give from the bottom of my heart like my unsolicited advice is please don't compensate your mental health obsessing over the manager you don't like. It's not worth it. We all know it's not worth it. It's not
easy. But can we focus on the things that gives us joy instead of uh I'm not a psychologist but don't don't let it have power over you. This is and I I try to do that myself. My manager is great by the way right now. But [laughter] >> okay. Yeah, I really resonate with that. I think all of us were quite passionate about our work and what
we do and what problems we're solving cuz we spend so many hours of our working day. >> Yes. >> On this, right? And we like to, you know, we like to take pride in what we do. I think it's a good reminder to know that this isn't this is one person, but that they are there are other sponsors, there are other things as well. I think one
thing that's also helped me in the past is having people outside of my manager who also understand the situation who I who are quite removed from the situation as well so I can speak freely to them. >> And we have a good enough relationship where they can just say Tanya stop like you're just going down a rabbit hole like this isn't healthy anymore. Isn't really that big
of a deal. And I think if you had a one thing used to help me a lot as well is if you had a bit of a rubbish day and it's going in your head before you close your laptop before you put your slack on do not disturb just think what are two three good things that happened today. It could be little things but what are two
three good things? >> And then you end your day on a positive and hopefully imagine problem doesn't go away but it gets a bit smaller right so >> and whilst we're talking about uncomfortable things. Okay, another one. >> Looking back, what uncomfortable or awkward experiences have you had that you think really shaped you as a person today? >> Yeah, I think many of them. But I also
have a very I have a habit of laughing at these awkward situations which just makes it more awkward. Um but if I have to pick one and and I I'll give you the reason first why I'm picking it that you know when people come come to work you don't know what's going on in their in their minds right there's just a surface that you see there's a
lot of things that's going on in their lives in their minds and you don't know what is what they're going through >> so I I try to remind myself time and again that be kind it's okay be kind so there was this one time when um I was a I was a team lead. I was leading uh a team of engineers and there was one engineer um
fresh out of college, a graduate who joined my team and it was co times. So we were having our one-on-one after a couple of months and he said to me that uh do you think that people don't listen to you because you're a woman? And I was like what people don't listen to me what are you saying? So he was like, "No, no, no, no. What I
mean is that you know uh I'm just entering the industry. I'm just entering corporate and I'm gay. So I don't know how to navigate it. Will it influence something?" And I'm like, "Wait, what? You're gay?" So I was on a completely different uh page and he was just doing something else like there's [laughter] so many things that was going on in his mind. And then I became
conscious that people are not listening to me. So I also had to unwire myself eventually that no no no it's it's okay it's not my trauma. Um but yeah, no what what I learned from it is that you know you're thinking that this guy is just doing this one task but there's so many things going on in his mind and uh >> um yeah just just to
be to be kind to people and just once in a while ask them that hey everything okay and not everything is about projects and uh timelines and deliverables right. Um yeah, this is this was very awkward for >> Oh, okay. >> And yeah, I I like that as well because sometime everyone's different, right? Some people bring their full self to work, you know, everything that's happening in
their lives. Other people are very very reserved and none of these things are right or wrong. This is very up to the individual. So I think you're right. If you're noticing something that's not right, you just ask is everything okay? If they share, great. If they don't share, you know, that's >> fine. But it probably gives them a bit of comfort as well. Oh, someone's looking out
for me. I feel like this is a a safe a safe space. >> Yeah, I like that. And don't worry, we all listen to you back [laughter] here. >> So, thanks for >> So, I'm going to switch gears a little bit and talk about a topic which I'm sure all of you have heard multiple times today um is AI. So as we are all aware AI it's
really changing the way that we work and not everyone feels the same way about it. >> So as a leader how are you n how are you creating a safe space for your team to navigate different AI tools how they should feel about it and make sure that they're staying adaptable and minimal to these new technologies that are coming out. I thought we were done with difficult
questions, but [laughter] Um, yeah, look, there's a there's a lot of hype and noise around AI, right? But the fact is behind all of that noise, there's a very very powerful tool there. It is there. >> Um, what I'm doing within my own little org is that uh we are giving u we're giving time to people to learn about this tool. Right? With any new tool there's
a learning curve and you cannot just ask people that hey 80% of your code can be generated should be generated by by AI or by coding assist. Thank you everyone. Um so what we're doing is uh we're giving them like like you know 10 15 20% of their time that hey just just just go explore and not like chat GPD explore but um do something with uh
create something create anything MCP server new agent or >> and we have this thing weekly thing called AI show and tell. >> Yeah. where everybody comes in and and they show something that hey this is what I did and this was pretty cool or this did not work and I also learn every day from them. Now I don't know if this is going to work or not.
I don't know maybe next year we're going to know but um this is the direction that we are taking also not just within my or but as a company also. >> I like that as well cuz everyone's so busy everyone's working on different things. So by setting out, by being told by leadership as well, it's completely okay to set aside some dedicated time, everyone's learning in their
own way. >> And are able to apply certain tools of things that they're working on either for work or personal interest >> and then able to share. So like basically fostering a sort of community. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. >> And this one isn't so difficult. Don't worry. >> You said that last time, but [laughter] all right. So, what are some words of advice
for someone trying to step into a leadership role? I don't think that theory can do it. >> you're going to have to step in and see for yourself whether you like it or not, right? Whether you enjoy it or not. I remember back in the days when uh I was stepping into the management track, I had a deal with my manager that if I don't like it
or if I don't enjoy it, I go back to being a software engineer. It's it's been what six years now and I think that this deal still stands. But that was more like my safety net. But that safety net already exists for everyone. Like if you if you're if you want to try it, just just go for it. I mean, what's the worst thing that's going to
happen, right? Like we we just pivot. That's fine. It's all right. And one last thing that I would say is that don't wait for the title to try and do something that you want to do. I mean don't approve your friends uh requests on on uh you know holiday requests but I think that you can already try doing the things that you like about you know what
your manager or what uh the leader you look up to is doing and then u titles will come >> I think those are two very important points I think the first one sometimes alo it's human nature right where we get really worried about oh if this happens then this will happen this happen we end up in a sort spiral, >> but actually sitting down with yourself and
asking what is the worst that could happen. And when you do that sort of mental exercise, you realize actually the worst that can happen is still pretty good. >> And you would still have learned something, >> right? And I think the deal as well is good if you're able to like, you know, have those sorts of conversations with your own manager and just come up with that
understand what your different options are just in case you need like a >> a thing in your mind that if you're getting stressed about it, you know, this isn't the end all and be all. Yeah. >> And I think as well the other point about don't wait until the title. It's kind of two-edged sword as well because in order to get the title you need to show
you can do it but also when you have the title like hey now I need to do it. But there's always like there's so many types of leadership right. So leadership through you have leadership through influence but no authority. >> And sometimes it's actually some of the more effective ways of leadership. >> Oh absolutely. Yes. So it might be someone in your team who's a little bit
more junior just starting out or new to the country even and then just helping them showing that leadership giving them some sort of guidance could be in coffee chats or lunches it could be in structured >> mentorship anything so yeah I really like that so final thing don't worry so linking back to the session title so becoming the leader you want to be are you the leader
that you would like to be >> uh On good days, yes. On bad days, no. No. But I think that's a journey, right? Like, uh, I'm still learning and I don't think that everybody anybody can say that, oh, I'm there. I've learned. >> And if you're not learning, then it's also going to be very boring, I believe. Um, so I'm very flexible in a lot of things
in learning new new ways of leading. I do have a couple of non-negotiables, you know, like um no toxic culture, for example. And um I I try to be very very authentic, but other than that, it's it's very Yeah, it's I I think that the leader I was one year ago, I'm not the one that I am today, but uh I hope it's uh it's uh it's
a growing and learning experience. So, >> okay, I like that. Yeah, I think yeah, it will never just be linear. We'll never be at some point. It's going to keep growing especially with the way the world is growing. Oh yeah. Scopes are changing everything. >> Cool. Well, thank you so much. Thank you everyone for coming. Um yeah, enjoy the rest of the conference. >> Thanks everyone. >>
Thank you. [applause]
