About this talk
This talk explores the importance of creating inclusive workplaces where neurodivergent talent can thrive. Ingret Tapin, founder of Diverse Leaders in Tech, discusses this topic with Ana Hydroska, founder of Engage Lab, and her daughter Sophie, a student who shares her personal journey with autism. Ana emphasizes the need for psychological safety and understanding diverse employee needs to foster innovation and well-being in tech environments. Sophie recounts her experiences in a performance-driven school that led to burnout, highlighting the critical need for accommodations that respect individual requirements. Both speakers advocate for open communication and adaptability in leadership to harness the potential of neurodivergent individuals.
Full transcript
Okay. How can we build workplaces where neurode divergent talent doesn't just survive but truly thrives? That's the question I have the pleasure to unpack today with these two very special experts. My name is Ingret Tapin. I'm the founder of Diverse Leaders in Tech. We are a datadriven community on a mission to accelerate diversity, equity, and inclusion across the European tech industry. And one of the experts uh
we are very proud uh to be able to work with is Ana Hydroska, founder of Engage Lab. and she's going to help us uh understand what kind of leadership is needed to create work workplaces where all types of minds can flourish. Ana, could you shortly explain what is it that you do at Engagement Lab? >> Yes. Um, so I founded Engage Lab after working for 16 years
in a fast-paced uh tech companies such as Eden or Amazon. And I've experienced and seen firsthand how understanding of human behaviors um can actually uh help you to unlock their talent potential and especially in a current context which is often referred to as a vaua word and vaua stands for volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. In such an environment, your companies they really need to innovate fast to
maintain uh this competitive advantage. You need to take risks. Uh you need to adapt to change quickly. And then how do you do that? How do you prepare your teams, your managers so they can actually help you to achieve that? And here the critical factor is uh psychological safety. So I help leaders to under understand how to optimize the workplace dynamics, the workplace in general for different
types of employees to achieve innovation, high performance, but also in improve the well-being of employees. >> Okay, great. We're going to talk about psychological safety and the well-being of your employees in a minute, but I'm also very excited, humbled to introduce you to our second expert, which is Sophie Tapin. I'm extremely proud to have her here on stage with me today. Sophie is a 16-year-old student at
the DA Lux in Harlem. She's an outspoken advocate for neuroincclusion. She's also an insp uh aspiring leader in STEM and she's my daughter. Please join me in giving them both a warm welcome. So Sophie, I invited you to join this expert panel because you have a very personal story to share about your first years at high school. >> Yeah. And this is a story that we both
found out that could be very inspiring for companies who want to learn how to get the best out of their neurodeivergent uh talent. Before we take before you take us on this journey, uh a few years ago we discovered something about your brain wiring. Would you share what it is that we discovered? Yeah, a couple years ago I was diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder. >> And what
does autism having autism in your workplace which is in school, what does that mean? >> Um, it means that I get overstimulated quite quickly. I need to find ways to accommodate for myself and I need instructions pretty clearly. These are just a few examples of how it affects me at school and work. Okay. So these are some things that your school needs to accommodate to you for
you to be able to perform. >> Okay. So your high school journey when you finished elementary school you got an advice to go to a kimnasium in Harlem. How did you feel about starting high school? >> I was very excited. I loved learning and I was very excited to learn more in a bigger school. >> And what were your expectations of high school? I was expecting making
a lot of friends, learning a lot of stuff, making tests, doing homework, just a high school experience. >> High school experience. And what happened after a few months of um transferring to a totally different >> I got very sad and tired and felt very lonely and misunderstood. I didn't want to go to school anymore. >> It was a different experience than you had expected. >> Yeah. Very.
You said sad and lonely. Um, can you explain a little bit what kind of symptoms did you show at home after a few uh months? >> Um, well, I just wasn't excited to do anything. I didn't want to go to school anymore, so I didn't sleep so I could be at home longer. I got stomach aches quite often. I just I wasn't really myself anymore. >> I
remember you having panic attacks at >> Crying a lot. What happened eventually? >> Eventually, I dropped out because I had a burnout and I just didn't I couldn't do anything anymore. >> Looking back, we discovered that your school had a very specific definition of what performance looked like. Could you give an example of how your mentor at the time explained what performance meant at your school? >>
They were very high demand. So, at the start of the school year, my mentor put three words on the board. He put social life, grades, and sleep. And he said, "You can only pick two. You can't have all three." So, you could either have good sleep and good grades, but no social life. You could either have a social life and sleep, but not good grades. Or you
have good grades and a socialized, but no sleep, >> but no sleep. They were very pushy on performing doing your test. Anya, how could you mirror this to the workplace? >> I think one of the important factor to understand when it comes to maybe the the relationship with um well I mean the brain is uh in the workplace is that um our brain don't perform well under
stress and uh what Sophi is saying here uh that she felt overwhelmed at school and that very often happens at the workplace. So we have this this little part of the brain called amygdala and when amygdala is it's responsible for processing emotions but if it's under threat uh it's going to put you in a survival mode. So then any capability for learning and creative ideas uh are
diminished and there is this famous quote of saying uh no one comes up with a good idea when being chased by a tiger. Uh and I also always say that fear will always play you safe. So in the context of what we just said also before that a company needs to innovate, company needs to to take the risk. You need to actually provide environment for those people
to actually decrease decrease this overwhelm and also take into consideration different types of people in your team with their own needs uh because then they are going to to show you their full potential. So these are very intelligent people with high with the high um possibility of create ideas but for that they need this environment to actually um uh yeah bloom. >> Looking at Sophie's first school
very performancedriven she would get afraid if um she wouldn't get high grades. What what would your teacher say about if you got a low grade? He got very angry if the class averaged went down because that meant we were lazy or we didn't try hard enough because we could do it easily. He thought >> he thought you're smart. You should you should perform and this four or
three is bringing down our average and that's not good for the school. >> In the workplace do you recognize that? What kind of cultures have this very >> and especially in tech? Tech is always driven by uh results. There is uh a lot of pressure from investors from the market to meet your KPIs and very often uh the founders or leaders they want to meet this KPIs
in strong in the short term but they forgot about the long term and they also forgot that they cannot reach it without their people. Their people are there to actually help you to reach it. So if you they don't take into consideration their needs but you are not going to get far. you're going to get maybe in the short term somewhere but this is not a short-term
term game and especially with the increasing uh competitiveness in the market. Yeah, you you need to accommodate better the needs of the employees and not just focus on the performance. >> So there's kind of a you could compare getting high grades to the KPIs in an organization. Yeah. Um but if you want people to actually reach their KPIs, you also have to um realize that their well-being
uh is something that is very necessary to reach them in the long term. Sophie, what are things that you asked for at this first high school that they could have done differently and would have prevented you from a burnout? Um, well, I would like to have to be able to wear my headphones during class when it got too loud, but I wasn't allowed to do that because
why was that? >> They said it was distracting or it was rude because it sounded looked like I wasn't listening. Even though I explained that I wasn't listening to music and I needed it to perform better. They said it wasn't allowed. >> You needed to focus. >> I needed to focus to achieve what I had to do in school. >> It would have been nice if I
got a quiet place to study. just small things, but >> It wasn't allowed. >> It was a burden for them, they said. Um, it wasn't a nice time. It was pretty rough. We went through a long period of recovery, but we found some organizations to support us in finding ways that you learned how to deal with your uh autism. Um, some of the things that are challenging,
but also the some of the things that are really uh >> rewarding. >> Yeah. rewarding for having your type of uh of brain. Eventually, we found a school. Are you now surviving in that >> I'm having a really good time. >> You're thriving, right? >> Yeah. So, uh what's the difference between school number one and the DA >> I feel like at this school, I'm being heard.
Everyone there, I feel like they are there for me and not based on how I achieve. They're willing to listen to me and adapt when I'm struggling with something and I need help. And that feeling alone already helps so much in how I perform at school and how I feel. >> How are you performing? What were you what kind of grades were you getting? >> At my
previous school, I got like happy with a four and now my average is like a 9.6. >> So, a big difference. And what do you think is the number one thing that your let's say managers because they're your your teachers are kind of your managers if you would compare it to work places. What's the number one thing that they are different doing differently from your previous teachers?
>> Well, everyone is different in my school. So, no one is the same, but they are willing to listen to every person's needs and they are willing to um change how they treat people based on suggestions. that they give. >> Yeah, they ask. >> So if you need something specific and you ask something, they are willing to try to help you to give that to you instead
of just immediately assuming that it's a burden for them and it makes things worse. >> Can you translate this to I see you nodding Anya because you're like yes this is what we do with managers when we train them on psychological safety. Can you uh elaborate a little bit on >> but also very inspiring because when I look at Sophie, Sophie is a future future top talent
and you can see now how when she actually changed the environment. So she went from a school but it could be an employer who listens and ad adapt to her needs her results uh went up and that's what's what also you want to create in your workplace. You want to listen to the employees because you have that potential sitting out there if they are probably your employees.
you went for recruitment. So they have all the skills but you need to listen to them to understand their needs. So you can actually create a space where they can perform and uh I have my own personal experience. I'm I have I'm a proud owner of ADHD that gives me ability to be super creative and I have a lot of great ideas but I also need spaces
to actually find focus. Funny enough, for me, for example, I always look for those little coal boobs wherever I work because that allows me to find my my focus. Somehow my brain see a small space, sometimes even dark, even better. And then I can really go into the deep thinking and uh creative thinking. Uh so um yes. So so if the employer listen then they can accommodate
better and of course very much translate to psychological safety as well. So V could you give because you have a few nice examples about uh yourself but also other uh students in your class. What are uh things that you asked for that are helping you uh perform better? >> Um well my brain processes information very quickly. So during explanations in class I get bored very easily because
I've already processed it. So, I talked to my teacher about it and she said, "I can work during the explanation or ask questions from someone else or read a book if I've already gotten it." They provided me with a lot of solutions that might help. And there are other kids in my class who can't really uh focus for that long. They're allowed to draw during explanations or
they're allowed to take their tests elsewhere when it's too stressful for them. There are a lot of solutions if you're struggling with things and they're willing to make a lot of exceptions to work better. >> And is are all the students in your school, do they all have autism or ADHD? >> No, they're all different. There are people with autism, but there's also people with ADHD or
OCD. And there's also people who don't have a diagnosis, but just had a very hard time at a different school and wanted to go here. Amazing. I'm so uh happy that we found a school that is um really doing their best to accommodate you, ask questions but realizing that they do not have all the answers and therefore their curiosity is getting the best out of you. Um,
do you have any tips for managers, people, team leads out here how they could what kind of behaviors or things can they do to get the best out of their neurode divergent talent from your perspective of what you've experienced? >> I feel like it's very important to not assume or make accusations about anyone. Even if you feel like you've met someone like them or you know what's
it like in their brain, sometimes it's completely different from what you think and that way you'll never truly understand someone because you've already made up a story of them in your mind. If you want to help people and make them feel comfortable, let them tell you their story without them feeling like it might get them into trouble or it's not good for them to be vulnerable. I
feel like that's very important because if you could just talk about things, you know better how to help someone. That's one of the most important things >> most important things being able to speak up any uh in this case being able to express where your boundaries are. That's a very important well cultural aspect of an environment right which we call psychological safety. >> Why is this so
important? Psychological is safety is is important because it you create environment where indeed people are not afraid to speak up and that could be sharing criticism, admitting to a mistake which will cost you much less money if you find out about the mistake earlier than later in the process but also sharing ideas. So this is what uh psychological safety uh will help you to achieve to create
than than environment. So from the perspective of innovation and and learning it is very crucial. >> Yeah. I can imagine that there are people out here in the audience thinking okay tailoring to everyone's individual needs that's going to cost a lot of time and I don't have time because we for this because we need to work. Anya what's your take on that? Well first of all when
you when you listen to Sophie there is not so many changes that were needed to accommodate her. So I think this is also a bit of a bias and there is a bit of fear or why we should even bother we don't have time for it. Well actually if you don't take time now you are going to pay for it later. So if you want to set
up yourself for a success in the long term you have to start investing uh into it now. And really when you start to study psychological safety and and there's there's there's small things that you can incorporate in your daily behaviors in the way you communicate with your employees that will already increase that level. Uh so I I really encourage uh in investing in learning how to do
that uh uh if you are thinking seriously about your business and you want to innovate. >> Okay. How about you Suvie? Does it cost your teachers a lot of time? Are you able to do your work and and give you the uh the education that you need or are they continu continuously spending time on talking about how you feel? >> No, it doesn't take a lot of
time. I feel like you already talk about your work anyways. So let's talk about how you are doing as well. And if you feel like you are in an environment where you are heard, you perform better. So the time actually gets made up and I feel like it doesn't take more time when everyone feels comfortable. let's see. Oh yeah, there was something else that I realized that
when I learned about your diagnosis, I learned a lot about the wording and uh some people they prefer to say I have autism. Other people say I am autistic uh are you allowed to say brainwiring etc. could could be feel a little bit tricky and we had a lot of discussions about it and I can imagine that there are people like okay I have to ask all
these questions but I maybe I'll make a mistake and say something wrong um I want to help but I'm afraid to help. I think you you had um a really good advice for me. >> Well, I feel like every person is different. Some people might be very comfortable answering a lot of questions. Some people might be less comfortable. I feel that you should try to help whenever
you can and try to ask questions whenever you can because maybe someone will answer them. And if you created an environment where everyone's comfortable to express their opinion and their boundaries and their feelings, they will tell them tell you their boundaries if they're uncomfortable with it. Because if you don't help because you're scared of making a mistake, that's the biggest mistake you can make because people will
express themselves if you've created a comfortable environment. Okay, great. I love I really love that piece of advice. Anya, do you have any last tips, strategies that could help either neurode divergent people in the workplace to well create help create their work environments in a way and the other way around? >> Yes. I mean, I think what just also to listening to Sophie as you can see
sometimes it's just about a question what do you need? So when you um on board your new team member, start talking and asking about it what do you need? You don't need to already ask and go in details or put a label on it. People have they they know their own needs. And if you start to uh ask these questions, it will take sometimes it takes trust.
Of course, it will take time if they uh because of course not everybody wants to open up straight away about for example ADHD or or if they're being on a spectrum. that uh if you start asking questions, you will start to create a bit of that uh um trust. And the other one is checking. And check-in is a kind of a tip that you can take when
you will have your next meeting. Start before you move into the agenda, check in with people where they are. But also model it. So be authentic and start by admitting how you feel today. And it also show that you cannot maybe feel great, but you are still do do the job. So people if they first of all see that you are authenting they will start notice okay
it's okay in this team to maybe not feel 100% today. So next time I'm I'm going to admit that and and it creates a bit of bonding between team members between the leader trust and this will really help first of all again when we when it comes to business to admit to that mistake to share that idea because people will feel closer and uh more trusting towards
you. >> Okay great thank you. Thank you very much for your attention. I have a few closing words. Um, it wasn't a a long time ago that I had my 15year-old not wanting to get out of bed, literally saying, "Mom, I don't see the sense of life." And I work for a company called Diverse Leaders in Tech. It's our mission to be as inclusive as possible. and
I felt kind of helpless and wasn't able to create an inclusive environment where my child could thrive. And I learned from the Davalook and this is really a big shout out to this school. They are a special school but they are a school because they are special. They are special because they are a school for and um they made it possible that she having panic attacks, being
depressed is now standing on stage and sharing her story and uh enjoying life again. So um big shout out to you both of you but also to the Doluk. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. If you want to know more about our community and what other cool experts we have uh and surround us with and how you can apply more uh of these strategies and practices
uh as a leader um as a tech talent or as somebody leading an organization, please come and uh visit our website. Thank you. Now, thank you.
