Merge Forward: Branching Inclusion, Merging Belo... Jay J, Jay T, Bhavani I, Catherine P & Michiel P

This panel discussion, titled 'Merge Forward, Branching Inclusion, Merging Belonging', focuses on the CNCF initiative Merge Forward, which aims to support underrepresented groups in the tech community. Katherine Paganini begins by highlighting the importance of diversity in open source software and the dire need for contributors. The panelists, including members from various underrepresented groups, share their experiences and insights on fostering inclusivity within the tech community. They discuss effective leadership, allyship, and community building, emphasizing the need for genuine engagement rather than surface-level support. The conversation also addresses the unique challenges faced by individuals with disabilities and the importance of creating accessible environments. Ultimately, the panel advocates for a collective effort to ensure that inclusivity becomes a core value in tech.

Welcome to today's panel, Merge Forward, Branching Inclusion, Merging Belonging. Um I'm Katherine Paganini, director of marketing at Buoyant, the creator of Linkerd, and I'm also the one of the co-founders of Merge Forward. Uh and in fact, we're all Merge Forward members here. Um and um because of that and because it's a Merge Forward panel, let's first discuss what Merge Forward is. So, Merge Forward is a CNCF

initiative that builds supporting networks for underrepresented groups and their allies. And we have seven diversity groups. Um some of them you'll learn a little bit about some of them because we have representatives here in a little bit moment. And our goal is to increase representation and participation from these groups. And um it is actually a really really important mission, um more important than many people think, um

because it addresses one of the most existential threats to open source open source, which is a lack of maintainers and um contributors. We all remember what happened with Nginx. Um projects are going away cuz we don't have enough people to maintain them and contribute to them. And so, we do really have to branch out and reach out to more people, welcome communities that have not necessarily been

felt welcome or knew that they were that there was a pathway for them. And with that, of course, it's not the only solution, but it must be part of the solution. We have to reach out to other people. And so, if you care about open source, you should care about Merge Um and with that, I would like to pass it to our panelists. If you could introduce

yourself and talk tell us a little bit about your role within Merge Forward. So, I'm Michiel. I come from the Netherlands. I work for a company called IaaS. Software company in the Netherlands. I was aware made aware of Merge Forward last year at KubeCon London, where I went to the community gathering for the LGBTQ. Met some new new people there and really it struck me that many

people in the LGBTQ community still finds it hard to to contribute or to find engagement with people and help in the CNCF projects. And therefore, I wanted to join and we started Friends of Dorothy there. Yeah. So, this is Bhavani Indukuri working as a senior software engineer two at Dell Solutions. So, I'm from India. Um so, I'm also very active in CNCF. I worked as a KubeCon

India co-chair last year for India. And I'm a CNCF ambassador and I do lead women and community working group. And so, every year the you know, KubeCon is becoming a hub for women community gatherings and we're trying our best to increase the representation. And now, you know, women in cloud native is part of Merge Forward and you know, we are working with Merge Forward to make this

even bigger. My name is Jay. Um I actually work with a handful of non-profit organizations and charitable trusts back in Aotearoa, New Zealand. Um a lot between areas of education with schools and young people that have disengaged from school. Um between businesses, local government, industry, anything around supporting people who want to pursue careers in tech and try to understand what a lot of those systemic barriers are

for them to be able to access that. So, um I've been involved in the CNCF ecosystem for about 3 4 years now. Spent some time with the contributor tag strategy group or was in the co-mentoring working group. And more recently, joined as part of Merge Forward under Deep Roots, which was previously known as the black, indigenous, and people of color working group. And so, I serve as

co-lead on that alongside Destiny Okon. Hello everyone. My name is Jay Jackson. I'm from Houston, Texas and I work for a company as a software engineer. Specifically, the company is Call Review. I am deaf and I'm a member of the deaf and hard of hearing working group and have been since the very beginning. When somebody told me that we were going to have this conference, I felt

as though someone is finally giving me the opportunity to grow grow a group that was promoting awareness and accessibility. The deaf and hard of hearing working group it was one of the was the very first group to join Merge Forward and we're trying to raise awareness and create documentation for best practices for accessibility for deaf and hard of hearing with the ultimate goal being to increase diversity

across the conference. And if I remember correctly, Jay, you never went to a tech or a conference, I believe, just because they were never accessible. So, this is why it is important to have these groups to welcome people from all walks of life because the CNCF just didn't know that they were not accessible. We had to form a group and kind of inform them how to make

it more accessible. So, yeah, very important work, I have to say. Um okay, so how has your uh lived experience, be it language, accessibility, um um your background, like um changed the way you or impacted the way you contribute um sorry, you you um develop code or you collaborate, Bhavani? Yeah, so growing up, I've seen you know, women are being undervalued and they have been treated in

a way that they they're not much to achieve in this world. So, that really stayed with me and and I I really felt that one day I should somehow challenge these assumptions to let them know that women can be capable of anything they wanted to achieve and they're not lesser than any gender. And this this really, you know, gave me a you know, improved my thought process

to make sure how I collaborate with other people in the community or in in an organization because I I really want to be in a place where everyone is treated equally and everyone given an opportunity to put up their ideas and implementing solutions with our organization. So, this is how I think to make sure that everyone is treated equally to give the opportunities. Yeah. Great. And Jay,

would you like to add anything? Being deaf in the in the tech world is a challenge. The default is typically the assumption when I attend something, they they assume any attendees can hear. Often people will say, "Hey, you want to jump on a call real quick?" And sure, that sounds like something easy to do, but it does require video relay service for me, which is an additional

technology that we have to involve a third party or some other kind of technology in order to make that call happen. And so, instead, I consider edge cases as my default. When I'm designing, I am trying to change the workflow for something that will work for me. And I think that's actually made me a better Okay, great. Um and for people in leadership leadership positions, how can

they move away from check box inclusion to real structural yeah, inclusion, Michiel? Uh yeah, well, I would I would approach that more broadly to lead us to to look at the psychological safety within groups and teams. Uh because it's very important that everyone feels open enough to speak and not everyone feels that immediately they they stay quiet. So, focus on the people in your team that are

probably more quiet or not not feeling encouraged enough to to speak up and maybe go in discussion with the people who are more comfortable speaking. Um that takes that takes some effort for people. Uh I also work as a scrum master and in scrum master, team coaching is a very important role part of the role. Um and mostly, we are focusing on the technical difficulties or the

knowledge gaps we have and forget to look at what really helps people in a personal level. And I think if you focus more on the personal aspect that people have, I think you can engage more and people will be more included and yeah, you can reach out more people. Yeah, makes total sense. Jay, anything to add? Um yeah, so back home, there's there's heaps of initiatives to

try and encourage more Māori or Pacific into the tech space and well, not just tech into any sort of industry. And when there's not any sort of co-design or anything that takes place, quite often, you know, even if it's well resourced, even if there's departments or entire dedicated staff that are dedicated to, you know, try and make that place inclusive, um it misses the mark because it's

been more about consultation than it has been co-determination. They've had the idea, they've done all the heavy lifting and and and decision-making for the first 80% and they've decided you can come in at the last part of it and we want you to feel included, right? But it comes back to that thing around, you know, nothing about us without us. You know, if you're going to build

a house and say, you know, we want Māori to be, you know, involved and invited and feel welcome, but we don't introduce one another, we don't get to know one another. If we want to say that it's it's welcoming for those who are neurodivergent, but the lights are bright and you know, it's all over stimulatory and everything. Don't be surprised if I don't want to help myself

to the fridge or you know relax on the couch or whatever or feel encouraged to invite other people into that place, you know, because you've done it without building that alongside me in the first place. So I think if there's an effort to have that conversation from the outset and be like, "Hey, we've got this idea. We want to make it more welcoming for people to be

involved, you know, can we sit down and flesh out what that can look like?" That'll set a much stronger foundation than the alternative. Um maybe I can add a couple of points to this like leadership is usually you know if in terms of women like so when we grow into the leader like you'll see very less women in leadership positions. So that is one point I always

feel like you know why can't we welcome them and giving the opportunities by trusting what they're actually you know the hard work they're putting and the treating them equally as like men and making sure that you know their value is being uh put at the top of the level and uh that's where I think they they will shine and you will see whether in terms of you

know speaker participation or like the participants at KubeCon if you see the women ratio and the people that are really putting their heart out during those women gatherings saying that they they wanted to you know grow big in their careers but all they need is you know the equal treatment so that their their assumptions their hard work and uh they can prove themselves in the world that

they are they are to achieve anything. Yeah. Yeah, now I also think that um one of the reasons is like well for many many decades hundreds of years men have been the leaders right and so the stereotype are very manly characteristics and so sometimes you think like oh a leader needs these characteristics and then you women don't have that cuz they're different but doesn't mean that it

is because they're less of a leader they're just different but like people kind of think if you're a leader you have to be like that. I remember I heard um a um radio host she explained she was one of the first a radio host on a news cast um that was female and she told later on that she would talk like a man like she would like

her voice would go down and everything cuz she would like mimic being a man cuz that's what she thought a newscaster should sound and but yeah that's the world we live in right and that's not only with gender with everything right we certain roles should be like this and then kind of like just understanding and being more flexible and seeing like well that's actually just uh my

perception and it doesn't necessarily mean that this means leadership so >> I mean the point just to add what I was this is not specific to gender. I have an example where one of the co-worker I know is like a different dumb person and because of that reason they've not even though he has lot of technical knowledge they've not put into a management side. So that's one

thing I put like even these kind of characters you should not define you know profile and worth in the industry. Yeah. Yeah, I I work in a company now that we have in our team we have two female team members and in previous companies we had I had a lot of male team members and the team dynamics really changed when you have women in your team and

that it really helped me understand other things better so uh having male female or anyone else uh in the team it just makes a difference in dynamics and I think that really helps really helps engaging. I think diversity is good. It's not just like a thing we say. so allyship is super important we talk a lot about it but sometimes it can be difficult in practice. Um

Padma is there any example of where someone an ally really really helped you and maybe an example where someone tried but missed the mark? Yeah. Um so the one of the LAC in the CNCF community that really helped me is like when someone trusted me early on before I believed in myself that I can I can be here today in in that position that I am in.

So there is like I started giving my first talk so regarding the solution that I've implemented in my organization for Kubernetes backup using Velero at CNCF Hyderabad. I just posted online that so this is the talk I've implemented and somehow Nancy has seen that post and she reached out to me saying why can't you you know be part of the Women in Cloud Native community. And I

mean like at that time I was just starting up I don't even know like where I'm going to where where I'm heading to in this community and the way she trusted me and gave me an opportunity and this is not with only with Nancy like I've seen a lot of people who are very much welcoming in this community. So you know if if you are very much

consistent in doing your hard work and they're ready to give you opportunities. So that's what I feel the allyship is very much helpful for me in this community. And maybe sometimes I feel the allyship which is like kind of surface level where the support is given but it it doesn't involve a deeper you know engagement is something I feel missed the mark for me. Yeah. Okay great

um Jay Jackson are there any barriers from what are the barriers from inclusivity becoming like really like default in cloud native? So from my perspective inclusivity is considered a feature a nice feature to have not a requirement. And you know you're like, "Oh well I've got captions for videos. That's fine. That's something we can add later or I can add this as an add-in next year." It's

not treated as an essential feature. And something you can work on like a project right? I'm going to add security right? You can't say you're going to add a security feature later because something will happen that will jeopardize the project. It is very apparent that the world was not designed for us. It is an auditorially centered world and so the we don't have documentation means we won't

know how to fix it. The for example we've already created best practice document that explains the best practices for conferences right or the best practices for adding captions and so all we're asking is that some that people start to adhere adhere to those particular best practices and be an ally in that way. and is there anything that people should stop doing immediately even if it's well-intentioned Michael?

Yeah well the first thing I I think of is speaking for others sometimes with well-intentioned we sometimes think we know what other think of situations or how they look at situations and we talk for them. Um and even it's well-intended you don't know what people are uh experiencing if you don't ask them. Um I I found out this week as well I we had a we had

a conversation and also with others and uh there were sign language people were talking to each other with sign language and we couldn't follow the conversation and at that moment we immediately [music] had well we we now a bit feel what they feel when when we are talking and they cannot and that was the first time I experienced that feeling and I never had that feeling so

that's also something that you really have to experience yourself and also what I what I notice is that when we we all come from different backgrounds we have different religions cultures so we cannot speak for others because we don't know what we all experience in life. Yeah, I I agree with that because like the same thing like when you know when one person is talking in sign

language we couldn't be able to understand and we were just thinking through how you know it looks for them and during that situation. Yeah. Yeah um say that's about as well. I think for those who carry the sentiment a few view inclusion as secondary or relevant to the real work in terms of you know what helps to create profit or whatever else I think you know your

your values are misaligned from the outset. You know quite often back home when there's initiatives for Maori or for young people or whatever you know you try to instill it to become structural to begin with and then when work starts to pick up or it starts impacting productivity because you have to be more considerate or there's certain you know cultural uh considerations that need to be factored

in and suddenly that takes the backseat to you know what needs to prioritize. We've got KPIs to hit we've got targets to meet all that sort of stuff so I think it's really important if if we mean that this is a community right? You know what does it really mean to be community? For me it means putting people first you know. Tech doesn't create itself okay? If

we are prepared really invest in how we look after people first, consider what is priority as far as their values, their cultures, their backgrounds, ultimately whatever you produce as a result is going to be, you know, stronger, more powerful, you know, anyway. So, and I think perhaps that's what's been some of the impact from, you know, maintainer burnouts and everything, you know, the attrition that's happened over

time is perhaps an oversight in failing to do that. Yeah, and you said it before as well, like the nothing about us without us is really important and historically we have seen yeah, just other people really taking decisions and think, I know best and I don't know, like for indigenous people, like the white people said like, oh, this is what they need. It's like they never asked

them or like people with disabilities, right? Like people able-bodied people people said like, oh, this is what deaf people need or blind people need and and it is well-intentioned, I guess, right? But you assume and but they never asked, right? And I think historically it's been like super like extremely like it's been always that case. Obviously it's been improving and people are more involved, but it still

is something and sometimes I think you you even us like who are we feel that we're inclusive and and kind of thoughtful. I uh sometimes you realize yourself that you're kind of tapping into that error kind of like just making assumptions. So, I think like always kind of yeah, remind remember reminding yourself that you don't know until you ask. Like yeah, just ask and also like one

other point like with deaf people cuz I've been more engaged with now with deaf people I've learned a lot and so there's so much diversity. It's not like um one like you have like deaf people who sign, deaf people who are oral, read lips and so on. So, it you cannot make assumptions of what someone needs, right? So, so even like if you're very active and know

a lot of people who are deaf, you still have to ask about their preferences as or and so on. So, it's really really important to to ask people and that applies to all groups. Be curious. Yeah. Yeah. And you learn a lot. It's really interesting, yeah, so. like kind of last big question is what does Merge Forward mean to you? Let's start with Uh for me, Merge

Forward is helping people grow in the community. I'm not really well, I'm technical, but I'm not really good at writing code, for example. So, when I started visiting KubeCon, I was really looking, how can I help the I think with Merge Forward, I can help make people grow, be more visible and make more awareness for the problems that are with with our groups. Yeah, for >> [clears

throat] >> for me like so far, we have different you know, groups to you know, achieve the same goal, whether it's women in cloud native or different hard friends of both things. So, this Merge Forward is bringing together all these group and groups under one umbrella to help us give more confidence and more you know, paths to achieve and to make the everything to a more accessible

to the community of the CNCF. And this also [clears throat] really help helping everyone to welcome every different person to this communities to show that we are working for you to make make this more accessible. Yeah. Yeah, to be honest, I I struggle with these initiatives sometimes, you know, coming into it because I've seen so many of them over the years and I've worked with so many

people who have been affected by them where, you know, the kind of thinking everything that we're talking about hasn't been factored. So, it's you know, it's not because they want, for instance, they want more Māori or they want more young people in it because, you know, they actually recognize the value that they have to bring, the intrinsic value value that they have. It's because they can get

more funding out of it or because it's strategically advantageous or it's great PR or whatever. You know, so you know, sometimes it's you know, coming into when you see so much of it and how much it's impacted people, it's hard not to carry some skepticism or at least caution in terms of how these sorts of things are going to evolve over time. But I think the more

time I've spent in it and even this week, the more time I've been able to spend time with people in it and see how it's important, you how important this opportunity, this platform is, you know, for those who are the only person of color in their in their company or, you know, they haven't never seen any initiative like this in Europe where they've had a chance to,

you know, have a voice, have a the chance to step forward. You know, I I realize it's it's these sorts of things are really important and powerful because of that, because they create that space for people. So, for me, especially in an industry like tech, you know, the way it can treat people sometimes, I think where Merge Forward is at the moment where I think it see

it's going, I think if we can get this right and it can sort of we can realize the vision of what it could be, for me, I think it'll be most one of the most important and transformational initiatives I've ever been a part of. For me, Merge Forward is really about the value that we have as a group. And personally, our conference has never really been accessible

and now it is accessible. And we're at the point that people are starting to see more more diverse individuals, but what it is is that we are removing the assumption that the default work for every work for everyone and making sure that inclusivity is a primary consideration so that people can come, be in community with each other. They're friends, they're allies and they, you know, you don't

have to know sign language to be involved with the deaf or hard of hearing group or with the deep roots group. Please come join us and work in allyship with us. And when one when something is accessible for one, it's accessible for all. That's just something that I would like to have. We are all a part of this community and I would like to see the conference

reflect that. Yeah, just one thing to add is um one of the things about Merge Forward is that is it is community driven. Uh so, as uh um we just heard, yeah, there are a lot of companies that just do the stuff because it's good PR or whatever and now we see like it's not good PR anymore, so we just stopped doing it. but one thing that

I thought was really great is like you see all these companies divesting from diversity cuz it's not like the fashionable thing to do right now, but like when you talk to the community, the people here in in cloud native, everyone is so supportive and that gives me a lot of hope. Um cuz we can do a lot and I I choose to focus on the people that

are willing to help and there are a lot of them, probably all of you here, and focus on on you basically and empower you to become allies, empower you to help us and bring change and I think like from the ground up, you can really really do a lot and then I do believe that at some point companies, if they want to hire the best talent, if

they want to have customers, they will have to follow suit, right? Cuz they they they are pressured to do that and we can create momentum, we can create that pressure and with the people who want to. So, I think like just focus on the people who are here, focus on the people who want change and uh let let's grow it and then create pressure. I think that's

that's what Merge Forward is about. So, we we don't we are not we don't rely on the companies. We do it ourselves. Um okay, so that's it. Just have a few callouts before we do Q&A cuz I wanted to get that on. So, first of all, I just said we rely on you on your support. Merge Forward um is a great initiative. I hope you feel so,

too. Please join us. There is a Slack channel on the CNCF Slack. We have also community page where you can learn more, but the best thing is to join the Slack channel and just say hello cuz we cannot see who is new. So, just say hello and and introduce yourself. We have monthly meetings. Come say hi and there are lots of ways and it's not only creating

good. Like I've made really really great friendships. Um so, there's a lot of benefit and it's always great to come every come to the conference, seeing everyone. It's just like the conferences are so much more fun with a community. And then something fun. Talking about fun. So, we are co-hosting a escape room party tonight. It's half escape room, half party where you have to solve cloud native

challenges. It's at 8:00 p.m. 5 minutes from here in the metro. We're all going to be there. We're going to have our our own room with fun Merge Forward activity and yeah, we hope you can join. And then yeah, we've had we're very active in the community hub. So, a lot of sessions have happened already, but like there's still a few going on. So, yeah. Community gatherings,

learning sign language crash course today was packed. >> [laughter] >> So, we do that every year every year not like every KubeCon North America and Europe. So, if you missed some of these sessions, just look out for that the next time and do we have we have 1 minute for questions? Sorry about that. >> If you have any question, there is a mic over there. And otherwise

we will still be here. >> Yeah. Microphone, yeah. AV people? Oh yeah, the the yeah, this is excellent. I think where I'm from what we call this is just your building a circle, not circle of distance time. People choose how and what they get out of it. I'm still a little bit worried about performative allyship. And what I've seen working really well outside of open source, but

still in tech, is to make sure that we are embedding the rituals of responsibility to each other. And we don't celebrate it when that ritual goes right the first time, the second time, or the third time. We celebrate it when it's been done right the 10th time over, and the celebration becomes part of that ritual. What is that going to look like for CNCF? Oh, wow. >>

I don't know. Come Come join and help us figure that out. Like, we're just forward is fairly new. Uh I mean, the deaf and hard of hearing working group is the oldest. Um two or three years ago? I don't remember. Um but most of the focus that we've Most of our focus has been on creating uh supportive networks and um also um increasing visibility. We have a

lot of people always speaking at the conferences. Um that has been our focus, but how to like change it more in like the system, uh that's something at least I think we need to figure it out. So, it's like I welcome you. Please join and let's figure it out uh let's figure it out together. Um I don't know if anyone has Yeah, I think we are also

out of time, >> But we were We will stay here if you have If you still have questions and uh want to talk to us, Yeah, please reach out to us. Please reach out and come to the Merge Forward desk section. And come to the party.