Tomas Lekavicius: Building Tech Product Offer

In this talk, Tomas Leici explores the intricacies of building technology products that can command higher prices through strategic restructuring and the effective use of emotional intelligence. He emphasizes the importance of understanding the value proposition offered to customers, focusing on how to communicate this value effectively to enhance sales and foster growth. Leici introduces the offer value formula, which includes components like desired outcomes, perceived likelihood of achievement, and the associated time delays and efforts required by customers. He illustrates these concepts with real-life examples, including a case study involving Tesco and its logistics optimization efforts. The session is especially useful for product managers and developers aiming to establish a clearer product-market fit and better understand customer needs.

[Music] ladies and Gentlemen please welcome our next speaker Tomas leici presenting the topic building tech product offer command higher prices strategic restructure value and weaponize emotional intelligence I'm trying to get familiar with my voice and with the echoing okay I can see some faces even though the light is so shining bright and my eyes I hope that uh the bright future is shining for you as well

today I want to speak a little bit about uh products especially about products monetization so even though that uh the topic naming then agenda sounds uh super sexy and super romantizm right like about emotional intelligence and psychology and prices what we do today very practically I will share some insight on how to structure value of your offer so what you're actually offering to your customers and how

to enable growth so this kind of step is actually a little bit before you start selling so that's why I think that uh the flow of the session uh would go as as this so first of all we will start about why you should even care about having the product offer and the offer basically means what kind of value you provide for your customer in a way

that you are able to communicate directly with the customer being understood by the customer and then enable sales enable more money enable more growth right how to build that kind of offer using offer value formula so I will share the exact steps what you should take care about and what you can do about it and then I will share one real life example how we did it

uh so you can see it in action so this session would be the best if you are looking of building a product and you are trying to find that product Market fit for example or you want to gain at least couple of insights or ideas of your already existing product but how to make it a bit closer to the customer how to solve the customer problems a

little bit better so my name is Thomas liches uh what I do I consult companies for a living mostly I work with technology companies or it departments in big corporations and Enterprises and uh I help teams to build better products and to lead their people better you can see a couple of clients here you can see a great photo of me from the last year conference when

I was giving a speech mostly focused on leadership side of things so this year I am going into a a different direction which I really love it's about the product so why you should even care about the offer and why you should even care about offer building so first of all of course it's value proposition you need to understand how to communicate value directly with your customer

so you are able to actually you know translate how do you understand the customer the second thing is of course driven of the sales so it's enables processes it helps you to smoother all the uh situation when it comes to the sales and of course with the customer acquisition and retention and finally not the least is Market position so how you are able to build a brand

that sticks how you are able to differentiate yourself from a competitors and how you can be really some someone unique and stood out from the vast ocean of different products that we are currently experiencing in all of the areas of our lives and uh our careers so first of all few things to consider and uh just diving right into it look at your clients now if you

do have a clients try to actually de diver dive deeper in what they are experiencing and first of all of course which clients do you like to work the most yourself so what kind of clients do you actually get the best results for perhaps it's less about demographics and more about psychographics so it's not about that you are helping you know young people to do this and

that but you're trying to look at the behaviors at the emotions and the decision- making process that your customer goes when they are choosing to pick your product or to pick product of someone else then which is the easiest to serve so how you're actually building the value for a customer and it's easy for them they get you you understand them and you can say that you

know they are my people right they understand they get you and of course which are the easiest to sell you may say that you know if you have money then you are easiest to sell of course perhaps there are Market that is easy to identify than easy to sell to or you have a specific connections or network that you're able to well in the end of the

day monetize so these are good questions to stimulate your thinking when it comes to your clients now if you do not have any clients yet I would suggest you run a series of interviews with the potential clients that will get you a lot of insight of what actually they are experiencing and what kind of obstacles or challenges they have in their daily lives the second part is

look at your current product and think what problem you are best at solving what you see yourself really enjoying and going deep into it you find yourself in that kind of philosophical or practical discussions even with your friends or your family and you're building something really interesting for you that you genuinely care the second thing could be about what kind of problem do your clients not only

now have but also what kind of obviously another problem they will have once you solved the problem with your uh with your product in the that current moment so you can learn or you can observe and acquire different skills for example for me as a consultant I started working with groups of people so it's a obvious segue once you have that kind of basic management skills already

nailed down and take care on what you notice is that the young managers or the beginning managers the junior managers they're starting to face very different and unique problems unique to their own so they need like individual attention they need like individual sessions or like like consulting or coaching sessions so this is this was my like logical next step to learn how to serve my clients oneon-one

not only in the group so these kind of questions helps us to stimulate our thinking and to think about different ways how we can understand our customer better now the killer Advantage is also very interesting one the killer Advantage is the way that you are super unique and you are able to differentiate yourself to the most so these are a couple of uh really really bald examples

just such as Amazon right so vast and efficient logistics and distribution Network that is really killer Advantage they are able to you know provide the speed and provide the delivery as fast as no one else in the 2008 the Amazon was the very first company in the world that provided same day delivery so you are ordering something in the morning and you get your uh your product

in the evening or the afternoon so they were the very first one because of this kind of logistics Network you can see the apple right all the ecosystem and if you have a phone you will probably want to have a laptop if you have a laptop and a phone you probably want to have a watch and so on and so on so that kind of ecosystem brings

benefit on their own the Vinted right the community dur platform instead of going and having like a lot of ads and a lot of different products vet went through the Community Driven platform and actually nailed that really really well we can have a coinbase right easy to use Easy to sell easy to buy and then you can go with that but what to do if you have

a little bit smaller product than the previous companies mentioned think about different killer advantages you may have perhaps you are very quick at the reactions perhaps you are very very fast and the speed could be your killer Advantage maybe you have an exceptional customer experience and you're able to outstand your customer and really wow them maybe you provide a specific Consulting and you have the expertise within

your team or you are expert yourself and you are able to provide additional consultancy for your clients instead of only just selling like a specific product maybe there are specific ways of working or leadership or you know Cutting Edge te and we can see a lot of different examples where people are jumping on the wave of different Texs right you remember Big Data web trees metaverse artificial

intelligence now what we will have in the future I don't know but sometimes it also helps and maybe you have like a very super super unique like a super Micro Niche that you are serving so you understand your customer really really well so thinking about killer Advantage is about having that one thing that you are the best of and no one can actually compare you right so

it's your best thing that you are providing for your customer so let's look at the offer value formula so this is the exact formula which would help you to distribute value and your customer will be able to understand your value really really directly first of all is desired outcome so what's the main goal that they are trying to achieve so the offer value formula is interesting and

perhaps if you are interested that I would really recommend to follow Alex harosi which is actually put this value equation in very nicely and beautifully form so first of all desired outcome what exactly your customer trying to achieve what kind of problem they trying to solve right it's super important next next part is perceived likelihood of achievement so it's not only about the likelihood of achievement but

it's also how the customer perceives that how uh the customer thinks about it and what kind of Stories the customer tells themselves about your product and if we want to increase the value we're trying to increase the desired outcome we're trying to increase the likelihood of achievement but we also need to think about not so nice and some negative ways that we need to decrease and first

of is time delay so how long it actually takes to achieve the results we need to lower that down and the second one is effort and sacrifice so what exactly do I need to do right so what's the effort from my side and couple of questions that would help you to understand this formula better are like this so what's the desired outcome what problem exactly they are

solving and what's the end game what they are actually trying to achieve if you are building a fintech startup and perhaps you also like one of thousand or plus startups that are providing like secure transactions and really like Fast Response and great customer experience but then we are thinking okay what's our killer advantage and what is the end goal of my unique ideal customer what they actually

valued the most is it security is it privacy is it speed right is it like lower rates internationally who knows right you should know if you are building similar product and also what's their goal behind the goal so the quick like cheat if you are dealing with busino business customers the goal behind the goal is money right pretty straightforward but if you are dealing with b2c customers

then you need to understand what's the actually the end goal so if they are using your service or your product what problem they are solving in their daily lives and how they're actually and enhancing their daily lives the interesting part uh is with the about do they trust us and our product but it's really important to understand do they trust themselves so imagine you are building a

fitness app and you are investing a lot of time and energy and money to create an amazing workout plans you are hiring a top trainers they're you know making the nutritional strategies and everything goes Super well and think that you have like a remarkable fitness app you have all the knowledge in one place really comfortable really easy to use but then you need to ask yourself do

my customer really trust themselves in following that training programs and this is where a lot of like behavioral focused apps or products fails in the fitness app example you can think about accountability groups maybe some kind of support system or Community Driven right so you are enabling your customer to reach the results faster and actually increase the Trust In themselves not only the trust in you that

your product can really provide and of course if they are trusting themselves they need to trust you it's hard in some markets than others you can speak about like medicine or Finance where it's really hard to gain the trust and you know won't end up on kof ailla channel in in the end but it's really important now when it comes to the time delay think about how

long it takes to get the first results and how long it takes to get the final results so what are those kind of low hanging fruits that your customer actually achieves in the very the very first like 24 hours of using your product maybe in the very first hour of using your product and what is the exactly the end goal so when it comes to the time

delay dualingo the language learning app is a great example right they are focusing a lot of making the process really gamified so you are achieving the results in the very first minutes of using the app you're seeing that you actually learned couple of phrases write couple of words and it becomes really interesting really really fast so the final result like the learning the language you can see

a lot of people doing that in like half a year or a year so that builds trust in the product and builds trust in myself because it's pretty easy right and it's as dinga mentioned it's like fun and easy way to learn a language right and they actually did that first because in the past learning a language meant having like ton of these kind of size books

and like some kind of boring tutors and lecturers that were spending like hours and hours explaining different and uh difficult language and grammar mechanisms and so that really relates with effort and sacrifice so what exactly do I need to sacrifice in my daily life for example how I actually need to change my behavior or build new habits in order to use that product and sometimes building the

habits might be very very simple like using some kind of new and unique interface that people are not familiar and sometimes you can see that some apps are actually pretty similar especially when we are speaking about like finance apps they're pretty Sim similar in the way they are us it in the way they are approaching their interface in the way they are actually even naming a specific

features so what is the effort and sex surprise what do I need to eliminate and how is actually painful all this habit Al together and sometimes if we are speaking about at Enterprise level of course we can have a lot of pain involved directly or indirectly for example we can have like roll out that spans throughout a year so there are a lot of like sacrifice so

this is when the customer starts to compare different ways of Behaving and different ways of your product so this is how the value form formula looks like it's pretty straightforward you have a desired outcome you have likelihood of achievement you have time delay and you have effort and sacrifice and of course first two the desired outcome and the likelihood of achievement you need to try to make

as much of them as possible so you need to increase the likelihood you need to increase the desired outcome and there you can find a lot of different methods and tools and tactics how to use it so for example when it comes to likelihood of achievement the social proof comes on the stage right so testimonials people similar to your customer using and actually achieving the results that

you are providing right when it comes to the time delay also have like a specific case studies and uh answering the questions of your customer and when it comes to the real life example I want to share one of them that uh I hope will put everything even uh in a more clarity way so the example it's about the delivery uh product that we build together with

Tesco uh like a retailer that you prob probably heard so uh we achieved pretty remarkable results when it comes to the last mile optimization and the vehicle routing software as a service and uh it was actually very interesting uh product that I uh was fortunate enough to lead and the interesting part is when it comes to that value formula so let's look at at a bit more

details so the desired outcome that Tesco wanted were coste effective routing optimization at scale so the solutions that they were using were either very very slow like a super corporate like and they were very very expensive with a lot of technical depth so they were looking for like a really cost effective way to optimize their roting and especially to have that kind of killer advantage on their

own while a lot of competitors were started to invest in technology more aggressively so this were like the desire outcome what they actually wanted to achieve now the perceived likelihood of achievement what we did to increase that of course organizational capabilities helped a lot they have hundreds of very smart Engineers of people who are able to GR grab our product to really integrate in all the internal

systems and to roll out to make it work so the capabilities and Trust in themselves were really really high now in our case the trust in the team worked really well we assembled a lot of a lot of great people they were like PhD level software uh engineers and data scientists and machine learning experts and product people so there were a lot of a lot of great

minds involved that helped us to show our portfolio that our team able to deliver and that helped build trust and of course the agile wh of working and constant collaboration Tesco really appreciated that we were quick to respond we are quick to adapt and we were able to provide something really interesting so we were like a like a some kind of pilot project that they want to

run the interesting part also is about time and DeLay So how we can actually roll out such a huge huge product in a huge Enterprise with thousands and thousands of employees involved first of all uh we ran a discovery so Discovery we worked in the different operational units such as warehouses and vans and like a lot of different operational units to grasp all that kind of existing

data and understand the Tesco infrastructure once we did that we then built a proof of concept and that actually was like the very thin down solution of our product where we tested on the subset of Tesco data and we were able to provide a reliable performance this is what they were looking at so providing a reliable performance making sure that we can really deliver on that specific

uh subset really helped us because we identified what kind of data do we need what kind of corrupted data do we need to eliminate and to understand from the client Engineers how exactly that will look like and finally the effort and sacrifice of course when you are are rolling out in the all the estate there are like as I mentioned thousands of employees involved hundreds of different

locations all across the UK so of course uh the effort and sacrifice is there but we try to limit that uh expressing that we are smaller we are anti corporate and we are able to react adapt and move much much faster so instead of having like a roll out schedules that span throughout like months and months and when I'm saying months I don't mean like two months

or three months but it's more about when sometimes mothers tell us their kids age right 15 months you know 20 months and it sounds comforting when you're saying 20 months because it's still in months but then you understand it's almost two years right so we are able to adapt really really fast and we are able to provide that value and communicate very very quickly what they appreciated

of course there were a lot of moving parts we had like a champions in our client side that we are really rooting for us and they were really understanding what we are bringing on the table and uh helped us to actually na nail that product so either though you have an Enterprise related product or you have a product that is more consumer facing you can use this

value formula and think about your product the slides will be available so you are able to see all these kind of stimulating questions and thinking pattern returns that would help you to advance your project or Advance your product and at least have a couple of insights at least have like a two or 3% of improvements in your product and I hope that helps so one of the

thing speaking about the time delay I think that I would stop here and ask if you questions do have questions thank you so you can scan the QR code which looks scary at the size as it is that what she said and uh you can find my LinkedIn so you are able to see you know uh my profile and I can send the slides very quickly if

not then organizers will uh take care of the slides and uh you will be have those after uh the event thank you Thomas uh once again any questions from the audience if somebody wants to ask a question now do we have anything on slider nope okay so I guess then that's it okay we had one question on slide them all right let's see don't you think that

thinking only about easiest to work with users is hindering us from thinking about right customers yeah that's a great question uh thank you Anonymous uh so first of all we need to understand what the right customer is uh but I'm thinking of having and U building that Foundation from the very beginning so what you gain from serving the easiest to serve customers first you build a momentum

both from mindset perspective but both from financial and you know the finan roll out perspective so of course later on once you have like bigger organization you have the resources to invest I think then it's the right time to focus on more users or increasing the number of users or thinking about the right users I'm not sure why it's different than the easiest work users I uh

in the ideal world it would be the same but uh it's only from like decreasing the risk and making sure that we are building the momentum from the very beginning so we're uh later on we can sell the exam from Tesla is pretty uh good because they started from serving the customers who has the most money and they are you know introduced the Tesla there where uh

I think Roadster this is how it's called but it was like $300,000 or something like that in price and they sold out that and once they have the financials and have the resources they they were able able to invest in like massive production of like Tesla S uh which cost like like 30,000 something in in us so uh that kind of approach is actually related to what

is your own end goal if you want to serve like a very specific niche of your customer then I will just uh go uh more on desired outcome and likelihood of achievement and try to work it out uh so you are able to serve that right great so the next question is uh what kind of problem were you adapting for Tesco is it dyamic vrp or some

very custom named routing problem if if I understand the question correctly uh so yeah uh we build actually very custom Uh custom solution which based on traveling salesman problem one of the like oldest uh problems in mathematics of how you can you know uh visit different uh points on the map in the most efficient uh way possible so this was like a very concrete uh routing problem

uh which we solved and later on based on the experience and based on the solution we built a satti delivery which is the product right so I'm not working at the moment with them uh and uh I'm not sure uh what kind of Technology they're using like today uh but uh but yeah it was like super custom and tailor made when it comes to uh Tesco example

we we have a lot of questions now people waited the last minute to ask everything or they needed just a reminder which is great because we have not we have time to actually for you to answer to them um okay so then the next one is in a per company can all of this uh done by one person or a group of persons is this something a

product manager should do so when it comes to Value uh formula I think uh that everyone uh should care about the customer and why you're actually building even though you are writing a line of code or you are you know creating a I know social media post you need to think about your customer but as I spoke with the speaker before me you need to have a

champion you need to have like an owner which really drives it and sometimes it's the product person sometimes it's the founder sometimes it's CEO the person who is actually focusing of driving the product and thinking about the product because in the end of the day if we speak about super BAS we have only three functions in the business we have operations we have sales and we have

product and every of our jobs Falls in one of these categories we building we are selling or we are trying to understand our customer so I think in Product Company of course uh one person could be ideally the champion or the final responsible the owner but uh everyone involved should think about it because sometimes and I saw it from my experience for more than a decade of

leading product teams sometimes the greatest ideas comes you know from developers about marketing for example you know how to actually understand each other so uh yeah I think it's important for everyone great so the next question is were you able to use the formula in the Tesco project to actually determine the price for your collaboration I'm thinking how to approach the uh the question where you're able

to use the offer form Des project to actually determine the price of collaboration so this is actually the process that where a lot of people involved because when it comes to uh corporate uh pricing it's a little bit different but when it comes to the pricing of uh your product uh is it like a consumer facing for example b2c so there we could have like a not

only like market research or the ideally what kind of price there is in the market and what is the like the smart way to approach that but when it comes to the offer formula in that specific case the price uh where I would say the second or the third uh step because firstly we thought about how we can provide the most value and how we can actually

you know win the client uh before thinking even about like super structured like price and on and all of these kind of negotiations so it's more about like a thinking system or like a formula to stimulate your thinking so you're are able to actually you know vocally Express where the value of your product is how you can make it better how you can you know decrease the

time to the result how you can increase the desired outcome and based on that you are able to increase the price and you are able to command that higher price in your specific situation but I understand that in the all of your products it really depends and it really unique the situation so that's why I'm saying it's only like a very first step just to understand the

value and able to communicate later on and the communication of course it's super super unique either you are like web trees project or you are building some kind of medicine startup and so on so it's really uh individual I would say uh does the same value formula apply if money is not the only goal measurement um let's say in addition to any value a goal also contributes

to some science research oh yeah yeah yeah that's a good one love it so um one of my teams were called research and development and uh that team were fulled of data scientists and other super smart people that uh when they're speaking I understand only like every third or fourth word you know just basic English but they are super smart so uh a lot of time where

were invested in building a specific uh like process from Academia to business so you know uh actually contributing to the research so we can have like a practical application to the business so I think that the value formula applies and uh when we are speaking about the formula we're not speaking only about the money so if we are increasing the desired outcome our desired outcome could be

the science advancements or improvements or contributing to some Science re research uh it also can be related with for example uh open uh uh open source code uh uh projects as uh one of the great uh panel discussions were happening today so we can can have a lot of different goals but it still remains to understanding your customer and being able to increase the desired outcome to

to decrease the time spent and to actually achieve the result even if it's for example science research so that's why the value formula is not the money formula because the money is not the only goal that you can achieve right and perhaps the money could be only the fuel for you to support Science re science research or some kind of other cause that uh you care about

thank you uh the next one is what are the tools and methods to understand customers and their goals so uh some of the tools uh that I find uh really fascinating and worked in my case is uh interviews like interviews with like a very specific set of your customer I think they are superior when we are comparing with assessments and we are sometimes think that okay I

just sent the assessment for like thousand of my clients and you know 20 people responded with their with their answers so the question is in the quality so how you can actually understand the customer so I like to go with unscalable methods in in in this area so actually diving deeper in like a specific customer and understanding them in the interview process you know asking the same

questions for example that I shared in the very first slides asking question that you think your customer should care about so this kind of method is straightforward it's pretty simple yet sometimes it's it's complex because you you don't uh you are not able to scale right so you are able to perform these kind of interviews as you have time so I think this one of course assessments

as I mentioned uh different like uh ways of testing your customer or asking the questions about what kind of uh products they are previously used for example and in a lot of cases you are entering the market that is already saturated and they're already products similar to yours so asking about your competitors clients also Al helps so of course we can uh dive uh uh deeper and

wider into tools and methods but I think if you can start from like interviews or assessments if you have uh like a huge customer base if we're speaking about couple of millions and plus then it helps to have the assessments but less than that I would say to identify some kind of specific groups of your customers and try to actually either go interview in the group for

example setting up to 10 or 15 people or one by okay uh how would you sell a product inside a big company which users would management so this is the U problem that's actually happening with u what are uh are who are the users versus who pays the money and sometimes it's not the same people right so this is happens with like big companies and uh that's

why when we're communicating about the value we need to understand differences what kind of audience do we address because once we were speaking with the drivers the drivers the the the the people who are actually well driving the Vans and you know um uh providing the the goods uh for the people and for the Tesco stores so their value is very very different than the value of

the management so we had that kind of different communication strategies of how to approach for example drivers and how to actually help them to start use our systems because uh you know they don't want to use any kind of new things especially we introduce like iPads right when you can see your uh your schedule you can see your map where you need to go and a lot

of drivers say that you know uh I used to have a map for example like a physical one and I don't want to use that or I'm just you know put pulling out my phone and I like to use like way for example instead of Google Maps so uh there are a lot of different value communication strategies when it comes to different audiences but uh that's yeah

that's a bit different because with the management their value lies in different areas and we are you know adjusting uh that communication that value formula that suit management better so different audiences requires different communication but the value formula helps us to put things into perspective and to actually have some kind of structure around that because in a lot of cases we think about the desired outcome like

the benefits or the features and that's it but uh in much much less uh environments we're thinking about like time and effort or sacrifice or even that kind of likelihood of achievement you know that they need to trust not only uh ourselves to deliver but also they need to trust themselves so they are able to actually use our product and gain that desired outcome from our product

that we are communicating so it's a bit different uh What factors contribute to the effect and sacrifice component in the offer value formula and how do they impact overall value yeah so the more effort and sacrifice is from the customer the less likely they feel that kind of value so of course that's why uh we can have the example of of health so we have imagine you

have like a plastic surgery on one side and you have like a healthy lifestyle with workouts and with nutrition and with maybe personal trainer and dietist to take care of that so you have like a plastic surgery that kind of solves the problem in like four hours of procedure or like couple of days and you have like maybe few weeks to recover and then the problem is

solved and the on the head you have like a trainer you need to eat well you need to sleep well you need to move well and they say okay you will have like one year or two years to actually you know build the habits and to actually transform your life and then a lot of people seeing at these kind of two different values they might choose the

plastic surgery because of the effort and sacrifice I say might might because the people are different and the ideas are different but that's why the plastic surgery is such a huge Market I'm not sure about the number you can Google it or chat GPT it uh but the number is staggering so there are like a lot of a lot of billions into that industry because of the

effort and sacrifice you know because they can you know really bend the time and actually save a lot a lot of your time and same goes with any kind of soft software when we're focusing not on b2c but B2B as well so you're saving time for someone right so the Tesco for example in my in my case they were more than able to build the same system

themselves they have Engineers they have processes they have everything but they were willing to pay us so we'll move quicker we will adapt faster and we will provide result faster without the effort and sacrifice of building that internally so this is how it uh contributes awesome thank you that's it for the questions in the slide but I do have one question myself yeah um so for uh

let's say you have an app that's b2c and you want to um have your users pay the subscription for that app is there some analytical method you could use to kind of see what the optimum price for the subscription would be so you know your lowest cost but you want to of course make as much money as possible while also retaining users if you put the price

too high then the users will churn if you put the price too low you won't make as much money as you possibly could so where is the optimum yeah uh $1 million question or maybe more right I wish I would have like a one very direct and clear answer but uh but yeah it's it's it's probably the mix of experimentation it's a mix of market research and

uh it's a mix of what is the end goal of everything so when we're speaking about the startup world for example a lot of apps goes in a few couple of years even without the profit uh and then uh even going really really you know just burning the money but they are building the user base they are gathering the feedback so they are able to scale it

and give it back uh afterwards so the Vinted is great example the last year I think was the first year they were uh profitable even though they are like a first uh unicorn of Lithuania so uh yeah so I think there is no one uh answer I think there is a lot of experimentation and also seeing how fast actually you need to gain that money from uh

from your user base because sometimes maybe it's a smart to have like a lower price but then gather the users and increase the LTV so lifetime value of the of the customer a bit later on because sometimes especially when the market is really really competitive currently I'm seeing the more um companies are focusing on uh lifetime value instead of like one purchase and sometimes they are going

uh to the minus of like one purchase they are you know paying the customer so they gain the customer so they are able to monetize it a bit later on you know with it with the especially with the subscription right so you may have like uh minus I know like € 10 EUR uh in the first month uh but on the second on the third month uh

they gain back yeah that's really interesting especially if you look at in in um with user acquisition when you pay for users and then you're in minus and then you wait some time to see if when when you will actually recover that that cost yeah yeah exactly