Antonio Perić-Mažar: Are You Failing at Being Agile?

In this talk, Antonio Peric examines the common pitfalls that organizations encounter when implementing Agile methodologies. He emphasizes that being Agile is not merely about following frameworks like Scrum or Kanban, but about effectively responding to change and focusing on delivering value to customers. Antonio shares insights from his experience as the CEO of a digital agency, discussing how many companies struggle to adapt to unexpected market shifts, particularly in the context of the COVID-19 pandemic and the rise of AI. He argues for a mindset shift that prioritizes customer collaboration and iterative progress over rigid methodologies, advocating for smaller, cross-functional teams that can adapt quickly to feedback and changing market demands. The speaker stresses the importance of empowering teams and believes that Agile principles should permeate all levels of an organization, not just within development teams.

[Music] ladies and Gentlemen please welcome our next speaker Antonio peric mzar presenting the topic are you failing at being agile talk so as yep said my name is Antonio and today I will talk about the agel so about this talk just to give you a brief introduction don't expect anything like methodologies uh like scrum Canan or we will men on that but I want to talk about

common uh common failures that company usually do so as said my name is Antonia I'm from Croatia uh I co-founded few companies I have experience on building products but my core business is still the position of the CEO in locastic which is digital agency uh but we are not like regular agency where we are out stuffing people we usually set up product development teams for the clients

and building products with them so most most of my knowledge comes from actually the products so when you ask people like do you do AG usually they will answer you we are doing scrum we have like all the meetings all the all the ceremonies Etc yes we are doing like standups we are doing retrospectives we are doing like planning Etc but is it that really agel like

is that what agel is about usually my answer is like like that's just meetings like the agel is more than just that so uh what's the agile actually I will give you two examples later which you surv one you survived one we are living currently but actually agile is the how fast do you respond on the change when something happens you need to respond on that and

if you can be like very uh if you can very fast respond to the changes that's actually meaning that you are very AG so agile is responding to the change let's talk a little bit about the markets like especially today who's who's working in products like can I see Hands I don't see anything actually but okay few people in agency okay like mix it 5050 per. so

basically when your customer says we need something new you need to respond to that if you don't do that they will find your competition which will actually build that feature for them and that's respond to the to the changes that's respond to the market like Market is faster than ever if you're not following that you will probably die in a few years I'm sorry to tell you

but that's that's the truth so the first big change that we had four years ago was covid-19 so we had a lot of examples of the companies who didn't survive this I think it was twoyear period of the lockdown where everything went online and just companies started stop to work okay some companies were not able to transfer their business online but most most of the companies were

not prepared to set up the business online so they were not agile they were not prepared to respond to the change so that was a huge mistake for that for that companies of course now there is a different problem there were companies like Google Facebook or cetra who were hired in covid-19 so we have now different situation and different way of handling that but that's not topic

of this talk second thing is actually this this is the next big example and part where we are living in its AI today we have like AI in every literally in every aspect of our life like even if you're are not developer but if you are not using AI you are probably slower than someone who is using that so adopting AI in your everyday life I'm not

saying that AI will replace developers I'm not going in that direction I'm just saying that AI is increasing our productivity and using that as sorry as our like manager or as our assistant or something it's definitely way to go today so this is time where we need to adopt and we need to accept AI as something new and who knows what will happen in 5 years but

we are living in time when like there is a lot of un uncertainties that we need to to accept but if we go just step back there is daring Theory you are probably familiar and that that doesn't have anything related to the it because it didn't exist back then but he said like the most uh like the it's not the most that intelligent that survive it's the

one who is able to adopt faster so basically this is the nutshell of the AI like if you can adopt faster if you can work together and if you can deliver the value to the customers we will survive and that's basically the most important thing so basically I I I decided to start this talk with few very common sense I will talk about common sense later but

this is actually all the things that you need you just need to deliver value to your customers and if you are doing that you are already good so let's move forward let's move to reality of it or software development so usually when some company decided to go agile the next step is to hire consultant people that's how it goes it's much easier to hire someone to train

us right what's the problem with the consultant people it's that is business that's a huge industry so there is very nice LS range uh rent that I love it which says like we are paying a lot of money for someone to teach us what is common sense of building the software and that's true like if you bring someone to your company doesn't matter if you're are agency

or if you are product development company they will start explaining you that scrum probably is the solution for all the problems you have that doesn't work right so instead of the paying so much money for some evangelist or trainers or something we just need to use common sense which is as I said add value to your to your customers and how we end up with this all

consultant people so who has retrospectives probably everyone right does anyone play some stupid games retrospectives come on come on yeah one two three yeah there is like enough so there is like energy levels there is three little pigs and then there is my favorite this one here Kinder Surprise like what the literally so you have adult people Engineers like very int intelligent people and you try to

get them to buy Kinder Surprise egg to bring it to the retrospective this is from some company that is selling Consulting in the aob so it's not a joke I'm not kidding so you're trying to get them to have a toy at at a retrospective and to say how they feel in in related to that toil and recent Sprint like What's happen Happ in here like obviously

now it's funny but people are doing that so usually in a retrospective you have adult people you have serious people so what's wrong what we need to improve what's good what we need to keep Simple plain simple but of course Consulting people they need to sell you something as I said we have common sense we need to use it in software development unfortunately we end up like

WEA how do you feel please give a face or something I will give you one please give you a face example so we work with one client and a project manager from the client who was leading the team she sent a message like can you give me a face how you are feeling so people send it like three five two and then she start asking people like

with two or three like why are you feeling bad because like obviously you only have a work in your life so there is something related to the work and guys responded to I don't want to answer first time second time third time she pushed and then he said like I'm divorcing I'm not feeling well like please stop bothering me so just stop playing you stupid games be

be serious be focused on what you actually deliver why this is happening because if you have a bigger company as I said it's much easier to hire Consulting people and start building from top to bottom because if you are manager or if you are CEO of the company you will say we need to introduce some things we need to introduce some agile methodologies then you will hire

people and say okay this is way to go but this is not how it works you need to build it bottom up because every aspect of your company needs to be on the same page sales marketing management development teams they need be on they need to be on the same page and they need to have same core values of the company so it's not about scrum it's

not about kamban it's not about anything related to methodologies it's about how we are delivering how we are responding to the to the requirements from the customers and how we are delivering value to to them so as if there are some people who are leading teams or who are CEOs here my advice to you is that don't be like don't stop giving the orders just give more

opportunity or more freedom to your leadership team and see how they will grow something good will happen or if something bad's happen you can always replace them that's how the business works but give them freedom to build actually something and you will achieve much more instead of just leading everything to from top to down I will talk a little bit later more about hierarchy and how organization

works but this is just introduction for now so let's talk a little bit about agile mindset so first I hate word mindset because if you go on Instagram or Tik Tok there are all the the internet gurus and they are only talking about mindset mindset mindset Etc but this is actually good word because we need to go back we need to move from the practices back to

the mindset so there are four core values of the of the of the AG and mostly of them are like just focus on the customers deliver a value focus on working software focus on responding to the change customer collaboration Etc but we forgot that we focus instead we focus on Canan we focus on scrum etc etc so basically scrum became I'm I'm using most a scrum because

if you start googling or if you if you're researching the agel you will mostly end up with a scrum but that's the reason why I using as an example but there that is just methodology that's literally nothing it's a framework that gives you like some ideas how to handle things in in software development but in the in the end as I said on the previous it's a

mindset like you need to put this mindset in every aspect of your company I will give you example if you're working in the in the development agency how your team can be agile if your sales team still selling in Old way in Old way a traditional waterfall way it's impossible because they sold something with fixed price with fixed budget with fixed timeline and now you need to

be agile that's that's impossible so all the aspects of the company needs to be changed so as I said it's it's it's just common sense just add value move forward add value move forward that's that's all what is it about so there is no plan you will see later that I have SL slide plan is everything why there is no plan because we are living in 21st

century and customers are requiring you on a daily basis new features and you need to respond on that so something that you planned yesterday doesn't mean that it works today or something that you play two weeks ago doesn't mean that is that has some same priority as today so you need to be able to respond to that changes and you need to be able to change the

plan so the only thing that you have is actually your backlog and your backlog is supporting your customers and your customers are the king doesn't matter again do you work in a product or you work in the agency in agency is a little bit harder why because you have stakeholders and you have clients who are investors and then you need to convince them that they customers are

actually the most important people why because they are paying the money to your customer and then your customer is paying you money so it's it's a closed Circle that need they need to be aware about that and one more thing today if you don't have some feature but your competition has your customers will go to the competition they don't have patient they're just searching for the solution

that they need right now like for example I will just go very stupid example if they want to send a message with a picture and you have chat application and you don't have sending images as an option they will go to the WhatsApp or whatever we are not living in a time where icq is the only chat message application because nobody today is using icq because it

was bad now we have WhatsApp now we have telegram signal and all other things so there is choices for your customers and they will use it if you're not fast fast enough regarding methodology so there are two things and there is one one thing is more stupid than uh talking about methodologies it's that that thing is like which technology St are you using like ask your mother

or father or whoever who is older then who is not in technology and who is using Facebook or Instagram which TX St are Instagram or Facebook are using who cares literally who cares they need to post picture on Instagram Instagram is doing that you want to send a message WhatsApp is doing that who cares about the stack it's the same with methodology customers are expecting that you

implement the things they are requiring they don't care about Kenan they don't care about PHP JavaScript Java or whatever they just care about what they are using in a moob in their mobile phones or web applications so just stop bothering with it just use something that works for you but we will talk about that little bit later I have three rules which are there is some blog

post talking about this three rules I forgot the link I pull it few years ago but things are still same and first is the law of the customer and that says that entire company needs to be obsessed with with thing of adding value for your customer literally entire management marketing sales Etc so you need to have to have someone who is Superman in your team and does

anyone knows who is the Superman in in this situation it's product owner you know what's the problem with a product owner product owner needs to be independent person who can say no to everyone but the person who also understand business who understand marketing who listen to the customers I had a great conversation with Yip yesterday about this role and this is like almost impossible role like there

is more often case that you will not have capable product owner comparing to the role where where you will have someone who is capable and there is a lot of difference between these two roles and it was from your company actually YP someone wrote at a post on a on a on a LinkedIn few weeks ago and they were comparing uh project manager versus product owner role

and um comparison was done in a way like imagine that I need to play that I have a band and I need someone and I need to play here for 3 hours what will project manager do he has a budget he has three hours we need to play he will create a playlist of the songs we will come here and we will play for 3 hours that's

project manager he will organize everything and he will take care that everything goes smooth what will product owner do is we will come here and then he will listen or he will he will be watching every one of you like when I'm asking you the question and then he will move in a direction where you have a fun or you are dancing entire night night or on

the floor so that's a difference and it's a huge difference I'm not saying that project managers cannot be great product owners that's something that probably goes with the years of the experience but actually that's what product owners do he's listening and he's accepting the feedback and improving the things product or songs or playlist or whatever and the difference is a huge don't get messed with these two

roles one more thing that we need to be aware is there is no right way of building this software so probably everyone who is doing development or who is the leading team you probably Google it what's the best way of the building the software there is no answer there is no seller bullet why because building the software actually this is great explanation but actually like you need

to it's it's very complex calculation you need because every team is a different every client is a different every project is a different so you need to combine all these things and then you need to adjust to that so it's a huge compromise of the things that you have and then you need to do as best as you can with a team or client or or requirements

or whatever budget what do you have to build a great software so even if you have same company two different teams same methodology same skill level they will probably perform different different there is as I said there is no silver bullets so you need to be aware of this also when you are building uh a software or creating the tees this is also one of the common

mistakes because when you say to someone we are using waterfall they will say that's not agile that's all methodology you need to stop doing that I will give you one example that is not software development is there anyone who build house like literally there's four people six when you build a house you started by searching for the land then you bought the land that's the first phase

second phase was probably preparing a project blueprints Etc right and then you started building each of these phase was probably chaotic as how and it was more agile than any project that you build in a software development so we cannot say that because I also I'm currently completing one construction building and each phase is disaster like you need to go there and you need to change things

at a place like this wall is is not height enough it's not wide enough change it adjust the plans Etc that's AEL I'm responding to the changes but it's a waterfall it cannot be done in a different way so there are some software development project especially for example founded by European Union you need Pro to prepare project you need to build a plan you need to write

everything down and then once you get funding you can start building and then you can do that in iterations and you can adjust to the changes that are happening so waterfall can also be agile this is also very good graph that I love it because it says that different methodologies Works in a different environment what this says it says if you have very simple or slightly complicated

project but we know what is happening it's much easier to build it in a waterfall way because we can plan it we know what will happen we know what's the outcome but if we are not know where we are going or we need to explore the situation we need to explore the market and we need to explore uh product maybe the AGL is better maybe the scrum

is better but if you have very cical system and if there is some product owners or product managers here and they took over some team that was very chaotic there is no way that you will build it in a scrum literally there is no way you need to use something like Canal why because you need to fix highest thing highest priority thing first and that's how it

works you you take it where the pain is the biggest you fix it and you move forward and that's perfectly okay so there is again there is no solution for every problem you just need to adjust and that's again agile thing also when we are talking about customers there is a lot of companies that are working a lot not delivering anything not putting any value to the

market and they are failing which is like again common sense right but we need to focus on adding like I will say small victories like if you can add something that has small requirement from your side or you will spend small amount of the time but will add Great Value to the customers those the things that you should conquer first if there is something that is is

not adding the value but you will spend like weeks you just need to skip that and focus on the small wins and actually these small wins will lead you to the best product ever to the most satisfied customers so this very simple graph which looks like that my younger daughter brought it it's it's amazing thing just put the features there like we need to invest four weeks

and we will get nothing from this just keep it we need to invest two days and we will get I don't know happy customer build it very simple okay I'm baliz a little bit things here but actually it's a good idea to to start let's talk about a little bit about organizations so if you are working in a large organizations or or Enterprise companies probably you will

be on a left side the problem on the left side I'm not saying it doesn't work I'm saying what's the problem is and the problem is that when you want to fix something you need to go from the bottom to the top then top top to bottom to get approvals Etc when you are working in organization that is more agile you can do some changes by yourself

inside your team which should be small I will talk about teams later so that's much faster that's much easier because you don't need to ask for approval and wait for probably four weeks or five weeks to get the approval from the top because as you can see in bureaucratic bureaucratic organization there is not just one level of the management it's like multiple levels and they all need

to agree on the things which is very slow today in 21st century so yeah let's teams so teams in AGL environment they need to be small they need to focus on adding values that will be probably next slide and they need to be cross functional and there is one common mistake when people see when people hear cross functional that doesn't mean that everyone does everything in a

team like that means that team can deliver a feature it doesn't mean that all of you are designers product owners project managers developers Etc you need to be you need to know who is inside your team expert producer experience who ex who is leading the product who is developer who is deploying who is handling the service Etc so cross functional teams means you can deliver a feature

not that you are all experts in in some field and this is actually very important thing so small teams need adding if you have a huge problem you need to divide it divide and conquer so that was the strategy probably probably from the Roman Empire so you need to divide it in smaller problems each problem needs to add value and once you divide it you need to

stop you need to start delivering piece by piece in short Cycles if you are trying to add value in 6 months or one year and then you will deploy once you solve all the problems that's slow that there is no feedback from a customers you are not adding any value you are not adding actually nothing they don't see Improvement and that's a huge huge problem so that's

the reason why I told you I have the slide where no planning but be good and planning when I say be good and planning keep your backlog clean keep it with priorities and listen to your customers so once you get a feedback there is it's a normal thing to change priority but the top thing or the most valuable thing for your customers needs to be first and

you should focus on on that also the problem with top level hierarchy is communication so I think my next slide yeah this is better slide so in I don't like too much text on my slides but yeah so the first thing is mostly traditional Enterprise companies it goes top down uh top down uh management second second picture is like small AGL teams when you have Team like

maybe two teams of seven people company of 50 people or something like that but then things are going forward like if your company starts to grow and you have 100 people probably you are somewhere here at at number three which is AGL teams under supervision of of some management or CEO levels this is actually something that we all need to try to achieve but it's not easy

it's not even the best situation that you want to be there because it can be very chaotic it can be Anarchy in some way so I will say being between three and four it's ideal situation but if you are in three you are in good place because probably there is only few companies that will achieve true for AGL Network what that means that means that entire company

on inside every team is the only focus is adding the value to the customers and they are communicating between the networks sharing the ideas sharing the information with the same goal of adding value to the to the cust customers so probably if you are working in some uh huge company like 100 plus people you will be very happy if you are three oh estimations so there was

one very nice quote in on Twitter that I read few years ago and they said like if the pilot do if if the pilot does wrong estimation someone gets someone gets killed died with our plane wheel crash but if software developers do the wrongest estimation what happens literally nothing okay we did the wrong estimation let's fix it let's move forward and like it's okay that was probably

more acceptable two years ago comparing to today because now there is not that much money in the market so things are a little bit different but there are few things very important about projects so if you have fixed scope if you have fixed deadline if you have fixed budget you cannot talk about the AG why you all know when you are building a product when you are

building any project there will be changes and if changes happen you need to stop in this situation you need to stop you need to respond to the changes in a way you will do a new estimation and you will spend probably a few weeks on that in the AG will if something if some new request happen you just need to accept it and adopt it so doing

AGL in this way and you can do scrum you can can do can ban you can do water flow whatever you want in this way that will not work it it will be just imagination of the of the agel because there is no way there is no single way if you have all the things fixed that you can accept the changes that you can do something new

that doesn't work and uh so why this is very important thing you need to invold your team from the from the day Zero they need to there is no way as I said at the beginning of my talk if you didn't change the way how you are selling your products or your services or how your management is thinking there is no way that your development teams will

be agile so you need to invol development team from day Zero to give estimates to give plans to give some approximation how or what they are expecting that will happen I'm not saying that they will be exact 100% it's just thing that will help you to get better their product this is something that we were using few years ago now it's much more improved but when we

start talking with the clients like especially we in the discovery workshops I always say there is a wish list and there is MVP list why there is a wish and why there is MVP list because clients wants to have everything like they think that they are building I don't know space shuttle but actually they need a bicycle and when they tell you that at the first meeting

you are like you need a million dollars at least but when you start talking with them and then when you start showing them that some feature will cost I don't know $5,000 or Euros doesn't matter there they wish list starts to be realistic because they know how much money they have so MVP is actually in the end product that will work and will fit their budget so

it's just the way how you are talking about and there is no project with no deadlines on the budget even if you are working in a product at some point someone will ask you like you spend a million of the dollars you didn't deliver anything what is happening this is not related to the agency this is related to the to the life that is how it how

it works there is no unlimited money and time why focusing on uh on MVPs I already touched this point as I said like clients wants to build space shuttle but they maybe just need a bicycle to go from point A to point B and that's exactly the the sorry the picture on the bottom so you need to Sol problem that they have at the beginning even if

you are bu again if you're Building Product or if you're building agency and then you need to focus to improving that so we have some clients that we started working 7 years ago with small MVPs and when then we now adding more features more features for six seven years as I said but that's what they are what that's what they their customers are looking for so we

are just listening and adding more features and everybody's happy our customers are earning more money we are getting more work and it's a closed Circle again as I mentioned before uh okay this is again as I said my core business is the agency so how how to implement this everything in the agency you need to build a trust it's very hard with a new client to tell

them like we will not work on a fixed pay because our mind works in a different way if you go to buy a car or if you are building a house you need you want to know how much that will cost and that's what clients are requesting like how much this will cost and after a while you need to build a trust in a way we are

adding the value each time when we deliver something and you are paying us for that value not for the time that we spend it's very complicated situation but it's very achievable and the key key thing is build a trust okay in this that I was speaking for last 35 minutes I was talking mostly about adding the value but if we are just adding the value adding the

value adding the value at some point everything will crash because we will be too much focused on adding the value so refactoring organization retrospectives Etc we probably suffer at some point so it's very hard but you need to do it's very hard to keep the balance so you need to add a value but you also need to track what is happening with your code base what is

happening with your architecture and how much money you are spending on that because very easily you will end up with like bankruptcy or something so we have one client that Focus only on growth and in the end they bankrupt beginning of this year they're still fighting but it's almost D thing uh because they focus too much on one thing and they didn't watch the entire picture and

that cost them a lot of money so you need also to balance between code quality refactoring and if you are product owner you also need to be aware of this it's not just all about adding value at some point you need to give time to your teams but also team need to raise this issue and say like okay in the next print we will need to refactor

some things we have some technical depth that is costing us a lot of money and we need to fix that and it's perfectly okay to slow down a little bit fix the things and then continue adding the value Break The Rules this is very important thing because as I said at the beginning of the talk usually people go Google it and then they found a scrum and

they implemented everything by the book and after a few weeks or months whatever they notice that they have a lot of problems for example people are spending too much uh time on meetings they are not working they are not delivering they don't know what to do Etc I will go I'm not going with the slides but I remember the thing with the Consulting people and training people

I'm not saying that hiring someone to train you or give you advice is a bad thing I'm just saying that using the common sense and and understanding who are you hiring for that and what's their background experience it's very important thing so breaker rules try experiment with some other things try to adjust for example scram is adjust framework try to adjust it to your needs and if

that means that you will remove scrum perfectly okay if that means that you will remove the daily startups but you're still adding value and delivering on a daily basis perfectly okay if that means that you are not using scrum after a while and you call that I don't know Antonio but that works for you perfectly okay so don't be the slave of the of the Frameworks or

procedures Etc just be focused on adding the value having helping developing teams and delivering on a in a faced way yeah this is that that slide as I said there is I mentioned this already but there is no one thing that fits all companies all teams even the different teams inside your company so if you use the scrum by the book and you are using in your

company you in your and maybe that works for you but in my company that doesn't work for some sense and we adjust it we change it that's again perfectly okay thing so it's more about principles than methodologies so if you try to implement there there was one good thing that they did in locastic which I'm very happy about it was when we that was like eight nine

years ago when we started experimenting with AGL methodologies one of my uh lead PMS he said like Let's ignore all the tools let's let let's move them let's not pick jir or I don't know whatever people are using let's focus on the processes and how we are actually doing the things and then we didn't have any tool for a few months we just focus on adding the

value making our customers happy and making our development team happy and that worked that was a good experiment that worked we kept that and then we found a tool that was a perfect fit for the processes that we built so we didn't go out and pick the tool and then adjusted to that because that will be like suicide probably we went it in a different direction so

that's that's way to to go uh BHL with THL so as I said at the beginning you need to build it from bottom to the top and usually people forget that and they are AGL only inside development team but you need to be agile in every aspect of your company you need to do retrospectives in your management level you need to do resp retrospectives in your sales

sales team Etc so the sales is the most agile team that you have that you have probably in your company why because they need to adjust in any change that is happening in the market was it covid-19 was it now uh new situation with AI or Etc they need to adjust in a way how they are talking with the people how they are selling the things so

and basically when they get respond talking with someone directly they also need to adjust to that and BHL withl slide is about like do retrospectives about how you are leading the company how you are leading the team make some changes try some improvements and move forward with that uh I probably said that already at the beginning that the the slide with the four points of the of

the agel is if you have just procedure and if you have just framework implemented and you don't have AGL in every aspect of your company it will be just life lifeless set of the ceremonies and that's basically a truth if you say we are doing scrum and doing that just to fit to the to the scrum idea and and all meetings that is have that doesn't mean

anything you will still be very old what will usually happen to you that you will mask it and then you will do scrums in some iteration but you will still be not able to respond to the changes because when changes occur your team will say we have a Sprint we plan this we need to wait for two weeks two weeks in a software development especially with the

AI today time and I will stop here like if you have some questions we have three more minutes uh what I wanted to give you a message is it's just experiment with the things try something new don't bother with I will say now traditional Frameworks because even the AG Manifesto and and scrum exists for probably 20 years so we probably need to improve that and find find

find something new so it's perfectly okay to try something new to see if that works for you if that doesn't work just try something new that's that's also respond to the change that's also the agile way of the of the thinking so thank you if there are some questions I would love to answer them thank you Antonio great talk uh do you have any questions we have

three minutes to answer a couple of them okay one 100 yeah we're going to go to those if there are no questions from the audience can we share them on the screen okay so the first one is what do you suggest to the teams try to build bottom and failed people are not perfect they take ownership okay do you want ugly or polite answer ugly okay let's

go with the ugly and my personal opinion so I think that in a good times in especially last decade of the it all the companies over hired people and we hired a lot of people that are not capable to stay in a pace that technology is moving and then that people achieved in a level of the companies and they got to the positions which is team leads

or people leads or whatever you call it and now we are living in a time which are very hard and we are expecting from that people to do actually some serious work and that people are not capable I'm not talking about anyone particularly I'm talking in general of our of our industry so if you want there this is actually a great question because if you want to

build from bottom up you need to have capable people on each position that will take ownership and more important they will take responsibility of delivering that thing and I honestly hope but that's just my hope that's the reason why I said it will be ugly answer because once the market moves forward and things starts to be good again we will again start hiring everyone so the thing

we will not learn anything from this cycle it it is just a cycle don't be too depressive or something like that it's a normal cycle in a in a in an economy things goes up and down but I think we need to pick better people who that we are doing that we are giving the responsibility to lead someone and that will fix a lot of things but

that's that's hard part of the business it's much easier to write a code that's that's that's where we are living